Author Topic: CZ 452 Trainer  (Read 5686 times)

Offline i.candide

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CZ 452 Trainer
« on: November 06, 2011, 12:09:47 AM »
Well I finally did it. I went to the Fowler Gun Room in Orange and bought a  CZ 452.  In 10 days It will be mine.
 
 Besides a good cleaning and running a few rounds through it, what shall I look out for?
 
 The target in the box had a nice 1" group in 5 rounds.  Is there certain types of ammunition to stay away from?
 
 Should I stay away from naked lead rounds?
 
 Any tips from the experienced shooters out there?
 
 I'm thinking on putting a 3-9 power scope on the CZ.  Any recommendations on a good, inexpensive scope?
 
 Anticipation and excitement is running high here.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 07:17:55 AM by GhostWarrior »
i.candide
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Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2011, 09:29:01 AM »
         
                    Hi and I would like to extend a warm welcome to the Forum. I frankly can't be of much help since what I know about long guns would fit a match book cover. I'm trying to learn myself, Just because I have always been as bad as anyone could be when it comes to using them, and I really want to learn before I start my dirt nap.

                  We do however have some really great long gunners here that I am sure will be happy to help. But I would give them a day before they offer any advice. Weekends are normally built around house work, the family and sports, folks don't generally have time to be online. Frankly I don't blame them at all, If I still had any of the first two things to do I would be doing that instead of this, And I'm not a TV sports fan, I like to see things up front and in person, much, much more fun in MHO.

                  What I can say is that A) you bought a really nice CZ long gun, but you forgot to mention which version/model you bought. (forget that last bit, I just realized that you said 452 Trainer and I'm going to presume you are/were talking about this 452 CZ452 Special Military Training rifle. I may not know jack about using long guns at least not well, but I do know from chatting with other that your choice is a really good one for a First firearm, and B) My experience is with small arms up to Submachine full auto/select fire weapons and close in combat with Shotguns designed for that purpose, Which brings me to what I think I know about your question on Lead rounds. In any hand weapon I would strongly advise against using un-coated/non jacketed rounds unless you like cleaning your weapon a lot. Some folks do, it's what makes shooting so much fun, we all go at it differently in some way or another. The reason I say no is that you barrel will lead up much quicker than it would with semi-jacketed rounds. No offense but when I say lead up your barrel, I mean that sooner rather than later the lead will fill in the groves of you barrel, and in some case if not cleaned well and every time will fill in the groves of your barrel to the point that it becomes a smooth bore and no longer particularly accurate at any distance past say 20-30 feet I think? And getting that much lead out of a pistol is mostly an all day job, I shudder to think how long it work take to clear a rifle barrel, (think of lead in the lans and groves of you rifling as cholesterol in your veins and arteries. They fill up and getting them clean/cleared again is not fun.
 
 
                That said, it's quite possible that in a .22 Cal weapon the round is so small that leading may not be the same problem it is with its larger cousins. Again there are better folks than I that can give you more information on the subject, and most likely do it with a Whole lot less jawing than I just did to say not much.
 
 
                  I really wanted mostly to welcome you as a new member here, and answer, or try to answer at least one of your questions so you would know that you are not being ignored are think we don't care since it may be later today or more like tomorrow before you get a response that answers all or most of your questions. I fully understand that you won't even have the weapon for another few days, but personally when I ask a question, I tend to champ at the bit waiting for an answer. Sometimes being a type A personality has some draw backs and I'm still working on learning how to chill, and not expect instant gratification of whatever it is I asked or want.
 
« Last Edit: November 06, 2011, 09:35:30 AM by GhostWarrior »
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Offline i.candide

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #2 on: November 06, 2011, 01:36:32 PM »
Hi,

Thank you, GhostWriter, for the reply.  I'm new to the civilian sport, but am a retired Air Force Non-Com and not unused to firing weapons, just making my own choices.

I inherited a Winchester Model 94 30-30, and after seeing the cost of 30-30 ammunition, decided that I should 'plink' with .20lr.  I have read everything I could get my hands on about rimfire rifles and decided that I would buy either a Henry lever action, a Marlin M39A, or a CZ452/455.  I visited the gun shop, handled various weapons and models, and fell in love with the simplicity and looks of the Trainer with the European style stock, long barrel, traverse sights, and the way that particular model went straight to the shoulder like as if I had owned it for years.

I have been looking at scopes and have started a short list that so far lists the Nikon ProStaff 3-9x40 and Simmons Master Series ProHunter.

The only .22lr ammunition I have shot so far (stopped by a local indoor range last week and rented a Ruger Mark III) is the CCI MiniMag.  I expect to buy small quantities of various mid-priced .22lr and run them through the rifle to find the type that allows the rifle (and I) operate at our best.  I have also read a bunch on .22lr ammunition, and am more confused than when I started.  I will take your advice and stick with coated or jacketed rounds.

Again, thank you for the reply.
i.candide
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Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2011, 06:10:25 PM »
           Out standing! Thank you for serving. When I said First Firearm I left out the rest of what I ment to say, which is/was First CZ Firearm. Anyway sorry for not being clear earlier. And welcome once again to the Forum.
 
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Offline ZG47

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2011, 05:34:22 PM »
Subsonic is far more accurate at all ranges. Clean the barrel every 500 rds (or so) and you won't have any problem with barrel leading BUT also make sure that you clean out the primer residue from the front of the chamber. This is much more of an issue with .22lr than with centrefire, due to the higher ratio of primer compound to propellant.
 
If you have just cleaned your barrel, you need to fire two shots downrange to get the accuracy back. If you are changing from one type of .22 ammo to another you may need to fire 5-10 rounds in order to get your barrel accustomed to the new bullet lubricant. NB I tend  to use Winchester ammo in my target sporting rifle because the lubricant used for the basic target ammo appears to be the same as the hunting ammo lubricant whereas top end target ammo tends to have specialised lubricant.
 
When you buy a brand new .22lr it is a good idea to just fire off 50 rds of any old ammo before doing accuracy testing i.e. buy 500 rounds of decent subsonic plus a cheap packet of anything, for initial break-in. This is standard target shooting procedure.
 
A good shot at close range beats a 'hit' at a longer range.

Offline i.candide

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2011, 06:16:58 AM »
Thank you, ZG47.

 I did not know of the 'break-in period' of the rifle, though, now that you have told me, it stands to reason that everything in any mechanical apparatus must get to mesh together before the true character of the appliance comes out. 

I was totally unaware that 5-10 rounds should be fired to clean the old lubricant from the barrel. 

When you stated that you use Winchester subsonic target rounds, are you referring to Winchester T-22?

I am glad I posted on this forum.  I am learning quite a lot.


i.candide
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Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2011, 08:26:24 AM »
           Oh and I believe this topic actually belongs on the CZ & BRNO Rifles Board and really so much here. I did move the latest question to that board and kept the topic, But there is to much to move this entire thing to where it should have been in the first place, but if you think about it, since it was his first post, I figure it more or less qualifies as a welcome everyone post, But I am as wrong as anyone for not moving this where it should have been. e seem to have sort of skipped or the Welcome part an and gone straight into the help portion. So please lets all reconvine in the new Topic under the CZ & BRNO Rifles Board
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Offline ZG47

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2011, 02:07:58 AM »
T22 typically, although I have changed over to Xpert Premium as well, without any hassles. Winchester (Olin) actually abandoned the upper echelon target market a long time back but if you use something like Eley, RWS or SK/Lapua there are lubricant differences at the top i.e. (Olympic) level. You should also bear in mind that all .22lr biathlon ammo will have very soft lube.
 
There are several factors to breaking-in, as below:
 
1. Barrel conditioning.
 
2. Removal of sharp edges created by the cutting of the leade (pronounced leed), i.e. the cone cut into the rifling, which lies forward of the parallel (smooth) sided area correctly known as the throat.
 
3. Smoothing of the sharp edges on the gas port hole (in gas operated weapons). NB It took several hundred rounds, i.e. at least two AWQs, before the gas plugs on our Steyr AUGs stopped collecting bullet jacket material.
 
4. Smoothing of action. By the way, one of the functions of proof firing (as done in Europe) is to set up the chamber and solidly bed the breechblock of a breechloader in the action. You will note that Savage (which does proof its rifles) is the only major U.S. manufacturer whose accuracy reputation (at the range and in the field) meets or exceeds the best Continental makers.
 
5. Settling down of trigger. Ross Seyfried (of Rifle and Handloader magazines) discovered, some years ago, that when a trigger has been disused for a while, it takes a few shots (or dry-firing exercises) to settle it down, and that the more parts, i.e. levers in the mechanism, the longer it takes. I have confirmed his assertions with my own experiments, using a Lyman electronic trigger gauge.
 
This is a very quick overview but I hope it helps you to develop your riflemanship.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 07:04:07 PM by ZG47 »
A good shot at close range beats a 'hit' at a longer range.

Offline sgin

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2011, 08:52:58 PM »
Hey Candide,
Welcome to the world of owning a CZ .22 rifle.  I replied to one of your earler post today.  Your CZ will shoot accurately out of the box but you will need a good trigger job and test various ammo to find the mother lode.  You can go to target grade ammo but it's at a price.  The target grade ammo are usually sub-sonic and leaded.  I found RWS Rifle Target.22, not fairly expensive, shoots extremely well in all my CZ 452 rifles.  Yes, you can buy more expensive RWS, Eley, SKS, Wolf or Lapua ammo but a .22 should be fun and inexpensive.  Try the CCI Mini Mags or the Federal Champion .22.  I use this ammo for hunting and it shoots just over 1/2" at 50 yards.  I noticed that you live in So. Cal.  We have a local gunsmith who does excellent trigger work on the CZ.  He comes down from Barstow to attend our Silhouette matches which is this weekend at Los Angeles Silhouette Club.  At our silhouette matches, we have many shooters using the CZ 452 .22.  Our website is still under construction but you'll get the flavor of what metallic silhouette shooting is about:  www.shootingsteel.com

Offline teabag_46

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2011, 05:24:53 AM »
Mine is a 452 American with 22.5 inch barrel and Parker Hale moderator. As a break in, I put around 200 rounds of random ammo through - even then it was producing 1inch groups at 75 yards (out of the box).
As a rule I now tend to use Winchester X subsonic hollowpoint or Eley hollow subs, both give very good results, as do the Winchester hypervelocity for when you need a little more "oomph"!
As far as barrel fouling goes, the general concensus over here is to NEVER clean the barrel, as it is cleaned/lubricated every time you make a shot. I have to admit, as an ex-soldier, it goes against the grain, but it does seem to work; in ten months, I have put over 2500 rounds through the rifle and so far there have been zero accuracy issues.

Offline sgin

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2011, 01:55:51 PM »
That's amazing that you can shoot 2500 rounds and not have fouling and accuracy issues.   The issue is split among our silhouette club members as to clean or not to clean their barrels.  They shoot in silhouette big bore (centerfire) and small bore pistols and rifles and yet both sides shoot perfect or near perfect scores.  I will clean my CZ 452 and other .22 rifles after firing ~ 1,000 rounds.  As with all my accurate rifles, I'll clean with only a wooden dowel, Shooter's Choice and cotton patches.  I stopped using brass bristle brushes and Dewey teflon coated cleaning rods over 10 years ago.

Offline teabag_46

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2011, 02:30:15 PM »
As I said, it does seem wrong to me to not clean my rifle after every session, but even the local gunsmiths advised me not to - until or unless accuracy degraded.

Offline ZG47

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2011, 02:23:53 AM »
If you have ever tried to clean an old .22 target rifle, with lead embedded in the rifling, you will know where I am coming from. By the way, I have never met a master grade or international representative .22lr competitor who would shoot much more than 500rds without cleaning the barrel BUT ... to each their own.
A good shot at close range beats a 'hit' at a longer range.

Offline bob dobbs

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 04:44:01 PM »
Congratulations on 452 acquisition.  My first CZ was a 452 lux (now discontinued) with walnut stock 630mm barrel and tangent rear sight adj to 200m.  Perhaps the same as yours but with walnut.  The best day I had with it I was shooting 200m with m96 swede and took the CZ to kill time letting the swede barrel keep cool.  Repeatable sub 2" 20 shot groups @ 200m w/ iron sights set to 175m with cci mini mag. Obviously a windless day!  I see some of the newer CZ.22s have a 300 m tangent sight, wish mine did. I had a scope on it briefly but found it rather pointless.  At my recommendation one of the gun clubs I belong to bought a few "basic" and "scout" models for our youth rifle league.  I was a youth league coach for some years and the kids loved those guns, some even renouncing their their Ruger 10/22s to shoot club guns! Hope yours serves as well.

Offline bob dobbs

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Re: CZ 452 Trainer
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 05:49:23 PM »
Almost forgot, my only complaint w/ 452 is that the ejector position is rough on cleaning rods.  It's sort of in the way when cleaning from the breach as is preferred.  The ejector seems to be integral to the  receiver and not removable.  I have thought about milling it out and making  new one that would index into a slot and be held in w/ a counter sunk allen screw but I haven't run out of more pressing projects yet.  Probably too much work for a "sort of" problem anyway.