Author Topic: Friction Coefficient Comparison, Bar & Chain, ATF, Mobil 1, Amsoil, & Pennzoil  (Read 617 times)

Online PappaWheelie

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Having mentioned being happy with Weapon Shield, after being impressed by a Weapon Shield video that purportedly demonstrated huge (~100X; ~8X load carried by ~1/12 the area!) advantage over competitive lubes http://www.czforum.com/forum/index.php?topic=4798.msg20569#msg20569 etc. it has been an ongoing question in my mind how such a seemingly impossible advantage could be real, and thus what real-world advantage Weapon Shield might actually represent.

I recently came across something suggesting that many of the "big guys" use a different lube, FP-10, which in my relative Newbie-ness I hadn't heard of: I ordered a bottle to do said real-world comparison with Weapon Shield so that if there indeed was a better lube I could adopt it. I offer Whomever, btw, the opportunity to advise if they believe their favorite lube is better, based on empirical data or at least personal experience comparing lubes.

I rigged up a Friction Test Sled comprising a 5 lb. barbell weight with three 3/8" ball bearings superglued adjacent the bore in a more-or-less symmetrical array. Loading another three 5 lb. weights on top produced an "extreme pressure" loading situation that in the unlubed state sufficed to produce tracks in the mild steel support surface, which was 320 grit sanded to cut through most of the surface rust, and then vacuumed and wiped down with laquer thinner.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1ogEJvLhnGD2rzrVZ5ZVadgZq1_iO71lX

I used my cellphone camera and the Neostar cellphone holder PeachBoy son got me for Christmas (http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=93988.msg718868#msg718868) to take movies of the Rapala digital fish scale readouts, from which I took 5X "sticktion"/low speed friction readings to average.

Here are the results:
LUBE                       Average Load           Coefficient of friction
FP-10                      3.71                            0.19
Weapon Shield         3.00                            0.15
Anti-Seize                2.22                            0.11

This bears out the benefit of using a tiny toothpick dab of Anti-Sieze on the SA tooth/sear interface for the most buttery-smooth Single Action trigger imaginable.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2018, 02:24:30 PM by PappaWheelie »
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Online PappaWheelie

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Friction Coefficient Comparison, Weapon Shield, and Amsoil Severe Gear
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2018, 10:06:47 PM »
After being duly amazed at the way Amsoil Severe Gear lube, bought for the differential of my recently inherited and resurrected, almost 40 year old, early Yamaha G1 golf cart
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1KNPnfFQrQzg92hHviWAvTdX8ZgUQU4YT
really "slicked up" previously stuck trailer gate sockets, I thought it would be interesting to see how it performed on my makeshift 3-ball friction test rig.
I refreshed the plate, after careful lacquer thinner cleaning, using 600 grit and then 2000 grit wet-or-dry, and again used the cellphone movie method to capture peak load before sliding for both Weapon Shield and the Amsoil product,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RcJNM2vwXpX_wyNStv2P_JcTppG4XwQd which cost just under $18.00 for a quart at Auto Value.

The results reveal a new stiction champion, and by-far value champion: one would have to lube a whole lot of firearms to use up a whole quart!

Here are the results:
LUBE                            Average Load, lbs.           Coefficient of friction
Weapon Shield                   3.00                                0.15
Amsoil Severe Gear            2.75                                0.14


July 29, 2018 UPDATE:
I was so excited to publish the above last night that I did so having in reality only gotten one load video, with one single breakaway load for the Amsoil Severe Gear. I'd gotten two readings for the Weapon Shield, which (amazingly) again averaged to 3.00 but this morning woke early realizing that for fairness, consistency, and integrity I needed to get an average of multiple start-of-motion loads for the Amsoil. I took two series of seven readings, as it turned out, producing averages of 2.79 and 2.36, with corresponding coefficients of friction 0.14 and 0.12. The average of all 14 readings was 2.58 lbs., for overall coefficient of friction 0.13! So the "new stiction champion" label sticks, so to speak. Near Anti-Sieze performance without the "can't get the stuff off your fingers, etc." mess. The "90 gear oil"-class viscosity level of the Amsoil Severe Gear also represents an improvement for pistol assembly (slide rails, at least), for its greater "stay put until assembled" character (more like grease but still fully fluid). Congrats to Amsoil Product Development for pushing the bar. I see that Lucas sells a full synthetic "gun lube" in the auto parts stores but doubt that it will be competitive with Amsoil's best in terms of Extreme Pressure capacity: maybe I'll get some and prove the point.


316 reads as of this update; I've left a few breadcrumb trails on czfirearms.us linking back to this study as it seems (to me, anyway) pretty significant.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:41:51 AM by PappaWheelie »
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Online PappaWheelie

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Member, Gun Owners of America

CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA hammer tooth; PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster

Homeboy: CZ 97 BD, CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger; Underwood 45 Super 120 Grain Xtreme Defender

Online PappaWheelie

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Re: Friction Coefficient Comparison Data, Amsoil Firearm Lubricant
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2018, 10:30:32 PM »
Evidently FP-10 and Weapon Shield are related, per
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=75350.msg539493#msg539493
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=75350.msg543074#msg543074

Here's the result of the obligitory testing of Amsoil Firearm Lubricant
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1z8GU6w3U6UbmihVYxJemRHbqqsS8-OwZ
-Average of 10 start-to-move loads per cellphone movie captures:

LUBE                                Average Load, lbs.           Coefficient of friction
Amsoil Firearm Lubricant       4.72                               0.24

Nowhere near Weapon Shield, let alone Amsoil Severe Gear!

I hereby confirm Amsoil Severe Gear 75W-140 Reigning Champion Extreme Pressure Firearm Lubricant. I'd like to opine that the over-the-top PV range of Mr. Fennel's YouTube as cited above bears no relationship to the real world PVs of firearm function, so even if "real" (hard to believe as a two orders of magnitude better result seems to be), doesn't mean diddly to real world firearm "Extreme Pressures."
I thank Mr. Fennel for the improvement he obtained with Weapon Shield over FP-10, and also for producing an eye-catching promo video, but soberly observe that he's now got his work cut out for him, having been significantly upstaged by Amsoil's product development team who weren't even trying with respect to firearm lubes. Thumbs down, however, on Amsoil's product development team for the 3rd-rate EP performance of Amsoil Firearm Lubricant, which (believe it or not) has to be shaken before application!
 
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Offline Dvrdwn72

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Re: Friction Coefficient Comparison, FP-10, Weapon Shield, and Anti-Seize
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2018, 06:40:04 AM »
That you for taking the time, excellent read. I would like to see more products just to see how they all compare. Cuda lube, regular motor oil, Mobil 1 is a popular choice by a few "big names" along with wd 40 etc.
Again, thank you.

Online PappaWheelie

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That you for taking the time, excellent read. I would like to see more products just to see how they all compare. Cuda lube, regular motor oil, Mobil 1 is a popular choice by a few "big names" along with wd 40 etc.
Again, thank you.

After reading up a bit about CUDALUBE, it seemed a reasonable candidate in which to invest for testing. I ordered some, and in the mean time picked up a sample of the Lucas Gun Oil mentioned above.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vBbAE-h5LgzTANubKghKngxSazx3ti0S  $15 plus $6 shipping =$21.00
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1uSFRtCkNU1DrDSuTjEZd-WHbqXxdlQ0h  $5.95 at O'Reilly Auto Parts
Here are the "same methodology" results:

LUBE                                Average Load, lbs.           Coefficient of friction
CUDALUBE                           4.12                               0.21
Lucas Gun Oil                       2.74                               0.14

The CUDALUBE was exceptional in its stiction inconsistency; it was not unusual to have consecutive breakaway forces =X, then =0.5X, then =X again, a degree of scatter that would drive a statistician mad, and an engineer or scientist who understands that all variation has attributable cause (even though we don't understand them so much), stark raving mad.

The Lucas Gun Oil was surprising in that it performed so closely to Amsoil Severe Gear (which means it so convincingly whupped Amsoil Firearm Lubricant): this Weapon Shield-beating performance in a handy firearm-lubing dispenser makes it the "for all practical purposes" Value King in my view.  Color me surprised. It seems the text on the back-of-bottle label is worth sharing, as well: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1bmBSNtXjwsd5nZhtpQ2eOjTbJwm1Snt8

Fwimbw, I dumped the contents of my bottle of Amsoil Firearm Lubricant into the crankcase of my trusty auto, rinsing the bottle a couple of times with some Mobil 1 that I had on hand, in order to appropriate the firearm-friendly bottle itself for Severe Gear dispensing.

Just cuz, I again redid Weapon Shield, and again got the exact same 3.00 lb. average load. That, too, was surprising.


Invisible 15 Round RAMI: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=81829.msg600234#msg600234
Punching Above Weight: https://czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=96929.0
« Last Edit: August 14, 2018, 09:30:23 AM by PappaWheelie »
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Online PappaWheelie

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That you for taking the time, excellent read. I would like to see more products just to see how they all compare. Cuda lube, regular motor oil, Mobil 1 is a popular choice by a few "big names" along with wd 40 etc.
Again, thank you.

After using Lacquer thinner-diluted Severe Gear on the chain of my 1980 Yamaha SR500G,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9Nrjk17trvjQ3F5Qm9TUjRVdEVacnJCTk9qT2VOUmZKMVhj
thinking that whatever was left in the key interfaces after whatever sling-off occurred (not much of an issue given my custom SillyBisco chain enclosure) would likely do better long term than a wax type chain lube, it occurred to me to wonder what traditional Bar & Chain Lubricant's extreme pressure performance would be on my homegrown EP friction sled. I hauled out my jug of Husqvarna Bar & Chain Lubricant
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1gjKNbuZQtn0LOMA1PFx66Yb3Hn7NNxk2
for a quick comparison test.

And in light of numerous CZForum comments in support of Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF) for firearm lubrication, and the fact that ATF's "severe gear" application DNA had led me to use it in the gearbox of my (now-refurbished BY said SillyBisco) 1972 Yamaha DT2 46 years ago, I hauled out an ancient bottle of what I had on hand, Amoco FA (no doubt by-now obsolete Ford spec) ATF for testing.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1oselEqSz-zB8FGIa2dhFywWNvFUOxs_D

And in light of Dvrdwn72's prompting to include Mobil 1, I tested the Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 that I had on hand for SR500's eventual oil change,
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1OR5zo7-dVdN0LunoVAF4TyeVHXaeJLeO

-and for comparison the more recently acquired Amsoil V-Twin 20W-50
https://drive.google.com/open?id=13A_7fpGdlpAtkhTKT3v_OQ0s3Tq1eBuW
which I had actually used for said oil change, at the recommendation of notable engineer and cycle buff SillyBisco hizself.

And, in light of PeachBoy son's empirical observation of mileage increase when switching from Mobil 1 to Valvoline Full Synthetic and subsequent web-based evidence that even more recently-introduced Pennzoil Platinum beat them both, I grabbed my top-up bottle of Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30, on hand for previously-mentioned trusty auto.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1vVfS7F7EonRQqvRTWJN_L38EHe2RD6g1

Here are the "same methodology" results:

LUBE                                Average Load, lbs.           Coefficient of friction
Husqvarna Bar & Chain          4.28                               0.21
Amoco FA ATF                       3.81                               0.19
Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50          3.80                               0.19
Amsoil V-Twin 20W-50           3.44                               0.17
Pennzoil Platinum 5W-30       3.46                               0.17

SillyBisco is sending me a sample of Moly Cote, with which Anti-Sieze competes; will test upon arrival.
« Last Edit: Today at 10:37:18 AM by PappaWheelie »
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CC: CZ 2075 RAMI BD w/ CGW Short Reset Kit/1485-T2 Disco, 5 "Thick" Trigger, polished SA hammer tooth; PappaWheelie Invisible 15 Round RAMI Holster

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