Author Topic: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why  (Read 13446 times)

b5.5dan

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While many people say that the .40 S&W is the answer to a question never asked (and I am in agreement just a little too late), it is still one of "those things" that we are seeing more of with the modernization of "practical' or defensive shooting on the whole. Also, we get the .357 Sig, the .45 GAP, and countless other cartridges, each with their particular pros and cons. The 9mm has been in use for nearly a century, and it has been put to "good" use. Same with the .45 ACP. So, why make a new .357 or short 9mm?
 As such, this week's installment of Dan's Contribution to This Section (again, an answer to questions never asked  :laugh: ) is going to center on the second most important part of shooting (next to CZ pistols and long guns, of course!): the cartridges people use, where we use them, and for what purpose. Without further ado (read: rambling by Dan)...
 
 A SHORT list with very brief explainations of the most "popular" carts...
 http://www.chuckhawks.com/readers_choice_pistol_cartridges.htm
 
 Info and cool pics of some pretty obscure and interesting rounds (mostly Soviet/European)
 http://world.guns.ru/ammunition/pistol-cartridges-e.html
 
 Carts By Year (with the irritating .40 S&W on the new end  :grin: )
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_pistol_and_rifle_cartridges_by_year
 
 A Pretty exhaustive look at cartridges going back, it would seem, to the sticks thrown by atl-atls...  :shocked:
 http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/glossary.htm

Massad Ayoob's Guide to Choosing Your Cart...
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob93.html

I may add more. Also, the poll shouldn't be taken too seriously. It's just my attempt to get us talking about random stuff. We all need more random!
 
 

Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2011, 12:53:53 PM »
      The first cartridge made out of animal gut was just plain to weird. I noticed how it was fired wasn't mentioned. Not sure I would actually want to be around when it did. let alone the guy shooting it, Really fasinating all of it,
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Offline DeeDubya

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2011, 04:39:31 PM »
I'm all for new and innovative things. But some of our handgun cartridges just really can't be improved much. Years ago the 38spl was the choice (usually issued) for most law enforcement. Then some wanted the 357mag for all it's power. Then some didn't want the 357mag because of too much penetration and a fire ball that will make you blind and deaf for a while. I do have experience with most of these cartridges excepting the 45GAP. I stand by the proven 9mm, 40sw and 45acp. When the 357sig was first introduced I just had to have one (Sig P229). I tried different loads over a period of about 10 years and finally concluded that it should have never been compared to the 357rem mag. Only on a good day will it even approach the ballistics of a 357mag. On the other hand, the 10mm is a beastly rascal and reminds me a lot of the somewhat obscure 45win mag. IMO the "BrenTen" has it's place but I don't know just where. I've always liked Elmer Keith and therefore I like the 44mag. However, the 44spl is a lot more pleasant and can be shot in the same gun. The 454casul starts off the currently long list of "hand cannons". If I hunted Alaska I might be interested but not for any other reason.
 
I would vote for the 40sw as my favorite if it were on the list because it is pleasant to shoot, brass is cheap and plentiful these days, the power factor is just right for self-defense, double-stack magazine capacity is adequate and most handguns are available in the 40. A close second would be the 9mm but only because of international availability.

But, since this vote is about "interesting" cartridges I will go with the 10mm which is a variant of the 40. The "Bren Ten" first 10mm auto handgun was a flop but the 10mm was destined to hang on. Colt's Delta Elite was the next major manufacturer to make a 10mm auto and was somewhat more successful. I recently had the opportunity (this is quite unique) to have a custom handgun built for me. One of my choices was an STI "Perfect Ten" which is of course 10mm. Although very tempting, there were better choices. For my love of the 40sw I chose their "Executive" model. It is their premier handgun (not including the race guns) both USPSA and USPSA/IPSC approved competition and comes only in 40sw. Sorry for bragging just a little, but I am very proud and indebted to my life-long friend who is production manager / part owner of STI.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2011, 05:08:01 PM by DeeDubya »
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b5.5dan

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2011, 06:50:15 PM »
I should send you my .40 S&W snap caps, DW!  :cheesy: I guess I'm not man enough for the .40. Then again, I was shooting it out of sub-compacts, and we all know what that does. For EDC I've been switching between a 9mm and a .45. I seem to be able to control them both better than I could the .40. I've never fired a 10mm, but I would like to. Someday I will own a Dan Wesson in 10mm. I'd really like to have a 454 Casull for our family road trips through Montana and YNP. Sure, that would mostly be an excuse to own what you so rightly called a "Hand Cannon", but it's a pretty sweet excuse!  :laugh:

Offline DeeDubya

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2011, 08:00:24 AM »
I'm gonna say the 10mm has twice the "felt" recoil of a 40. Like the guns built specifically for it (BrenTen, Delta Elite, STI Perfect 10) are all heavy guns. Actually the BrenTen was based on the CZ75. The main problem with marketing was a short supply of magazines. Also, the grip size is too big for small hands. Some like the Glock 20 which they claim recoils straight back. Anyway, all said the 40 is good enough for me.
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Logan

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 11:39:28 AM »
I really wish there were a hard fact method to test cartridges, but each method seems to be fraught with problems.

"Scientific" uses ballistic gel. That doesn't tell you how well it incapacitates, though common sense would tell you the bigger wound channel, the better (though proponents of hydro-static shock would say otherwise).

"Experimental" sounds better because it uses real-world shooting incidents. But there are so many variables...
Shot placement is generally acknowledged to be key.
But you have the shooter's ability, where the shot hit, and who it hit to consider. Was the hit individual on any kind of drugs? Adrenaline? What weight, athletic fitness and age? I'm convinced that the best round against one individual (a big, slow round) might not be best against another (perhaps small and faster). So many variables...

I think the Strasbourg goat tests (real or not) had the right idea in using large, live animals (however questionable). But even then, the only thing it can tell you for sure is what rounds statistically work best when shooting a goat through the lungs.
http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html

I'll stick with my 9mm for now.

b5.5dan

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 12:14:22 PM »
Well, it's horribly unpopular and un politically correct, but I have no problem using goats for this kind of work. Heck. I love Indian food. I will take the goats in a curry when the testing is done!  :tongue:

Offline DeeDubya

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Re: Modern (and Not-So-Modern) Pistol Cartridges: The What and Why
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 12:49:15 PM »
Humans don't have the stamina that an animal does. I've shot plenty deer through the lungs and heart and they still bolt and run 50 yards before collapsing. I'd bet a human would drop right where he stands if shot in the chest with a deer rifle. JMO
DW
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