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Firearms and Gear => Reloading and Ammunition => Topic started by: bnmorgan on May 17, 2012, 09:47:34 PM
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I want to start reloading for my CZ (9mm, may also do .40 for wife). Would like to spend reasonable money, but not buy junk either. Could someone suggest progressive presses that won't have a 5 year payback time, be reasonably easy to use, and as automatic as possible?
Thanks all.
Byron
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The first progressive press I used was the Lee Pro 1000. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/428284/lee-pro-1000-progressive-press-kit-9mm-luger (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/428284/lee-pro-1000-progressive-press-kit-9mm-luger) They have gone up in price $50 in the last 15 yrs. I made a helluvalotta ammo on that press. Eventually I wanted a five hole press and moved on. I definitely had a good payback from that little Lee press.
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well, looks like it's popular and pretty easy to do according to youtube videos. what's the advantage of the 5hole? they're like, $50-70 more, and if i'd be money ahead in the long run, i'm open to it, but only if it's worthwhile.
Also, how do our cz's handle cast loads?
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A three station press does two functions at two of the stations. The case is flared on the same station that drops the powder. The crimp is done on the same station as bullet seating. It is easier to adjust the crimp at a separate station, although it requires another die.
I have only loaded lead bullets in 9mm once. The lead that I used was too soft and the gun was a mess to clean. You need very hard cast lead for high pressure cases like 9mm. I switched to FMJ
http://www.precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=B-9-124-FMJ (http://www.precisiondelta.com/detail.php?sku=B-9-124-FMJ)
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Forgetting about speed, back in the late '70s when I decided I wanted a progressive press, I realized it had to have a minimum of 5 stations for utility. Here were the set-ups I used:
1) resize. Prime on the down-stroke
2) expand
3) powder charge
4) seating
5) crimping
or, when powder-through powder measures came out:
1) resize
2) expand or use powder-through expander
3) powder check
4) seat
5) crimp Sometimes, the powder-through did not expand the case ID enough and I would run an expander die and the powder-through expander.
I found out that I had to be careful with the manual powder measure not to get in a hurry and forget to charge a case. I would catch it (the Hornady progressives have always been very ergonomic and the seating station is basically right under the loaders nose so there is no excuse not to look into the case when you go to place a bullet for seating), but that would be another case out of the cycle that I would have to remember to inset into station 2 just before the main loading was done.
Four stations is too restrictive and three stations is a joke. Even when using a single stage, I always separated seating from crimping after I messed up some cast lead reloads.
The only press I prefer over the Hornady L-N-L is the Dillon 1050. I didn't like the 550 or 650 without a case collator/case feeder and didn't see any need for one on the Hornady. The 1050 comes with a case feeder, but if one wanted, it would not be any trouble to cut down the case feed tube and load cases by hand as the station is right up front. On the 550 and 650, they are on the right side and I found them very awkward.
Thus, the LoadMaster would be the minimum progressive press I would look at, but I am not enough of a tinkerer to probably get one running. The RCBS seems over priced and I have not any issues with the Hornady being an aluminum casting.
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OK here's a couple of questions. ( I lied 4 questions :laugh: ) One of the reasons that the M16 when it was issued back in 66-67 for field testing, they had so many FTF's and jams was because they used powder that was little balls. They fixed that issue buy using extruded powder (rod like instead of ball like) and now it's 40 years later and as I am, after 30 years, going back into reloading, I see both powders sold for different purposes. The only powder I have ever used in the far past was Hurco Smokeless Shotgun Powder, for loading .38, .357's and 9mm
1) What would be the best type of powder to use, ball or rod? For 9's, Mak's, .380, 40's and 45's and also for 308 for both the 550 UCS and the Saiga?
2) any reason why 308 NATO (hotter round then the 308 Winchester and not recommend apparently for civilian sporting rifles?) would be a bad idea to use with the 550 or the Saiga?
3) And last how many rounds approximately (give or take a 100 or so) will a pound of power last for?
There are other questions, but I'm going to be ordering a couple or three reloading books, so I think I can figure the rest out.........
Also what do you folks think about my adding a Board covering reloading as a separate topic from Ammunition? Worth the effort?
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http://www.msgunowners.com/t12974-ball-powder-vs-cylinder-shaped-powder (http://www.msgunowners.com/t12974-ball-powder-vs-cylinder-shaped-powder) this should help w/question 1
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For rifles, and I would expect all pistols except maybe .25 Auto, the cutting of powder "logs" has no impact on the accuracy of the load.
From my understanding, every shot from every gun will discharge some unburned powder. Considering EXACT weight as being the path to accuracy has never worked for me. In fact, consistently throwing charges by volume tends in my rifles and handguns to produce slightly more accurate and consistently accurate ammo (smaller mean and std. dev.).
Ball powders tend to burn hotter than stick powders.
However, there is no way to choose one over the other until you have tried several in you gun to see what works best.
For a 40 gn charge weight, controlling the charge to +/- 0.4gn is a good as it gets--and is much better than even the premium factory ammo is held to.
One "problem" is that most rifles are never fired enough to determine what is "best" and many that are will be "shot out" before the testing is over. However, do not even think that just one or two 3- or 5-shot groups tells you what the load will really do. If you see more than a 0.5" change in group size for a 0.2gn change in charge weight, you are seeing much more of the randomness of the result than any truth about the mean accuracy of the charge.
1) What would be the best type of powder to use, ball or rod? For 9's, Mak's, .380, 40's and 45's and also for 308 for both the 550 UCS and the Saiga?
There is no way any one can tell you what your guns will prefer. For light pistol target loads, I prefer 231/HP38 (spherical), AA2 (spherical), and Solo 1000 (single-base flake that burns cooler then most). For magnum loads, all my magnums prefer 2400 (flake) over 296/H110 (spherical?). My criteria is always accuracy and not velocity.
In my .30-30s, IMR 3031 (logs) is about as good as it gets. In my .30-06s, IMR 4895 (logs) is about as good as it gets. One propellant my AR likes with many bullets and weights is IMR 4064 (log). If I was loading 7.62x39, one of the first powders I would try would be IMR 4198 (log)
2) any reason why 308 NATO (hotter round then the 308 Winchester and not recommend apparently for civilian sporting rifles?) would be a bad idea to use with the 550 or the Saiga?
That is a matter for the manufacturer to determine. I can not imagine a need to push the .308 over SAAMI limits.
3) And last how many rounds approximately (give or take a 100 or so) will a pound of power last for?
It is all dependent on the charge weight. There are 7000 grains to a pound. 1 grain = 0.000142857143 pounds. For a "typical" pistol load of 5.0gn, 5.0gn equals 0.000714285. So 1 lb will load 1400 rounds. A 20gn charge weight is 0.00285714 lbs, so 1lb will produce 350 rounds. So a 40gn charge weight will produce 175 rounds.
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I've been using a Dillon 650 for approx 16 years now. There have been a few cosmetic changes since then but nothing major. I think this would indicate a successful machine. I only use mine for 9mm, 40 & 45 handgun and 223. All other rifle and large cal magnum handgun go on the old Rock Chucker. Remember that with a progressive you can still do some stages manually. I don't like to break the cycle.and with handgun ammo progressives are plenty precise.
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Thanks for the help. So I suppose this leads to another question. I won't be loading in my Garage for 2 reasons it isn't climate controlled in any size shape or way. Which means that the humidity and temp can change radically, Affecting the powder and adding to the chance of static discharge. I can most likely deal with the static discharge by placing the loader and on either a grounded Anti Static rubber pad I have for working on computers especially the old ones. And I have some Pink Antic Static Computer foam for commercial carry cases, that have sensitive equipment in them, I think either of them would mitigate any static. (And I have seen what static and power do when mixed, and it's not a good thing, Especially what's left after it's put out.) So I'm pretty freaky about anything possibly picking of static. The other reason is even if I wanted to I can barely get through my garage let alone setting up enough space to reload :grin:
Anyway after being way to wordy as usual, is there any sort of cabinet/fire proof cabinet/Grounded fireproof cabinet, that is available to store the Powder in, Especially since apparently I will be using different kinds until I find the ones that work best for me? I tried Searching and didn't get anywhere, so maybe I didn't word my search correctly?
Also I asked in the Ammunition Board if anyone thinks a Board dedicated to Reloading would be a usefull thing to start? A couple of my other ideas/boards have almost no traffic so I'm going to move anything in them to a different board and then delete the Boards. I don't want to make another board that sees little or no use. So I'm asking for a conscience, Maybe set up a vote sort of thing.
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I'm neutral on the new board idea.
Yes, almost any cabinet made of metal with a grounding wire headed for proper earth ground should suffice. If you are really paranoid of it, you can get a flammables storage cabinet which is made for the purpose, double walled, insulated, and has blowout/hose bungs in the sides....usually painted bright yellow or red, with "FLAMMABLE" prominently displayed, but be seated while shopping for them, as they're usually priced heavily.
If you are patient you can find decent deals on them at ebay sometimes, maybe if you check industrial auctions in your area for places going out of business, etc.
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Smokeless powder needs to be kept (reasonably) cool. It will deteriorate more rapidly if stored at higher temperatures like 80-100 degrees. Garages here in Texas can easily reach 100+ in the summer months. Deteriorating powder can be detected by a reddish dust that becomes evident when measuring or pouring. The powder should not be discarded but taken to a safe location and poured out and ignited (no it won't explode). It burns rather intensely and you can realize all the stored energy going up in flame. It can also be burried where it will become excellent fertilizer. These are recommendations I have read over the years although I have experienced severely decomposed IMR that had rusted through the (then metal) cannister. I disposed of it by igniting since that seemed to get me just a little satisfaction for my money. Reminder, this is smokeless powder not black powder. You don't want to light a pile of black powder unless you need an instant tan.
Never store powder with primers. Primers are much more likely to accidentally ignite than powder. Also, I don't know the rule for this, but you shouldn't store excessive amounts of powder in a single container for obvious reasons. So it might be wise to purchase more than one smaller cabinet in order to minimize critical mass.
My biggest problem with static charge is that it can cause ball (flattend ball) powder like Bullseye or Unique to stick to the sides of a plastic funnel and the sides of the powder dispenser thereby causing inconsistant dispensing. I've had to go so far as to tap the side of the dispenser with each throw to knock out all the powder.
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In the past I have sprinkled powder on my lawn in the rain to get rid of the powder. You could use a garden hose if no rain is likely.
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Thanks again for the help, I will start looking on ebay, and craigs list etc.
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" Also I asked in the Ammunition Board if anyone thinks a Board dedicated to Reloading would be a usefull thing to start? A couple of my other ideas/boards have almost no traffic so I'm going to move anything in them to a different board and then delete the Boards. I don't want to make another board that sees little or no use. So I'm asking for a conscience, Maybe set up a vote sort of thing." ~ GhostWarrior
I'm thinking it might (but then I like to reload and many people feel it's a waste of time). This "Ammunition" forum could then be reserved for factory ammo.
www.loaddata.com (http://www.loaddata.com) has a current Burn Rate Chart in pdf. I like to keep one of these above my loading bench. For newbies to reloading it doesn't mean much but trust me, after you have worked up a few dozen loads and compared all the loading manuals and powder choices and powder availability you will find yourself looking at it often. When I started loading there were about 50 powders and now there are 178. Crazy!
Came back to add: Handloader Magazine, Rifle Magazine & Successful Hunter all published by Wolfe Publishing are so much worth the money. I've been getting Handloader for years (every 2 months) and still look forward to getting it. There is a wealth of information not only on reloading but various handguns and rifles and other new products. I highly recommend it.
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Re: problems with ARs jamming and not firing.
It wasn't JUST the ball powder. It was the fact the McNamara and his egg-head staff thought there would be no need to clean the new rifles and the troops weren't issued a cleaning kit.
Now, you are in combat, firing full-auto with a direct-impingment action that dumps the gasses and soot directly in the action, and NOT have a cleaning kit or been instructed how to use one, and tell me if there is any possible problem? Then you add a powder coating that basically forms a ceramic on the hot action, and you've got problems even with a cleaning kit. Thank JFK and McNamara
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Oh I totally agree which is why I said one of the reasons. Another one that few actually know about is that they designed and built the original weapon. but totally forgot to have ammo made for it. So they sent .222 ammo instead of .223 and gee what do you think happens when you have the wrong ammo in a full auto? Or did some one shine me on? I do know that one I was issued even 3 years After they were sent out to select troops to field test, they were still Stove piping, FTF's. both kinds. To this day I will not own a rifle with a round seating assist plunger. I don't care what they have improved, or the ammo being "correct". If they have to add an assist then the weapon was poorly designed, and should have been scraped. Cause clearing a weapon is one of the biggest reason troops and LEO's are KIA's. If you are busy clearing your weapon or having to push the round then rest of the way into the chamber, then you aren't returning fire and become a target.
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I didn't see this before and am really happy to have found it. I think that a reloaders's corner (board) would be a good idea. It might not get much use but I think it would be an excellant resource because more and more of us seem to be looking at reloading as being a way to allow us to enjoy our sport more and at a better price. I have found a lot of really helpful info here in this section.
And separating "Store bought" from Reloading seems like a good idea too.
Just my 2 cents.
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yes a board for re loading is a good idea. i am a member of a few other firearm forums with dedicated ammo / reloading boards and there are lots of 'traffic' on those.
my first press was a Lee Pro 1000 which i still use occasionally. i have 'upgraded' to a Dillon RL550B that i use more.
i shoot a lot and therefore load a lot of my own ammo. re loading one's own ammo results in considerable savings that pays for the equipment very quickly. re loading is also a fantastic hobby which allows me to shoot more. :grin:
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I could be wrong, but I thought this was a dedicated ammo/reloading board
CZForum.com »
Commercial Ammunition and or Reloading-R-Us »
Ammunition
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I could be wrong, but I thought this was a dedicated ammo/reloading board
CZForum.com »
Commercial Ammunition and or Reloading-R-Us »
Ammunition
oops! :embarrassed:
i saw this question by GhostWarrior ...
OK here's a couple of questions. ( I lied 4 questions :laugh: ) One of the reasons that the M16 when it was issued back in 66-67 for field testing, they had so many FTF's and jams was because they used powder that was little balls. They fixed that issue buy using extruded powder (rod like instead of ball like) and now it's 40 years later and as I am, after 30 years, going back into reloading, I see both powders sold for different purposes. The only powder I have ever used in the far past was Hurco Smokeless Shotgun Powder, for loading .38, .357's and 9mm
1) What would be the best type of powder to use, ball or rod? For 9's, Mak's, .380, 40's and 45's and also for 308 for both the 550 UCS and the Saiga?
2) any reason why 308 NATO (hotter round then the 308 Winchester and not recommend apparently for civilian sporting rifles?) would be a bad idea to use with the 550 or the Saiga?
3) And last how many rounds approximately (give or take a 100 or so) will a pound of power last for?
There are other questions, but I'm going to be ordering a couple or three reloading books, so I think I can figure the rest out.........
Also what do you folks think about my adding a Board covering reloading as a separate topic from Ammunition? Worth the effort?
maybe i misunderstood the question?
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I don't think you misunderstood the question, I think we decided to leave the reloading and ammo together as they pretty much go hand in hand.....
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DANG! Yes that's a great idea, and we shall do it. I have just recently gotten back into reloading and despite double and triple checking each round and having two set of Mark I eyeballs on it, somehow we got 3 squibs that scare the living beejeebers out of me. I'll talk about it later once the Board is up and I manage to get caught up with everything that has gone by the wayside, because of illness's, ya more than one and back to back, in the family or from trying to catch up with my catching up.
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The squibs do make you pay attention. Just so you stop when the gun farts instead of going bang you will be okay. BTW a brass rod only cost $8 but the shipping cost as much.
http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=18180&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1286&top_cat=79 (http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=18180&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1286&top_cat=79)
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8mm wooden dowel works well.
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Got them both, actually in a couple different diameters for big barreled pistols. Most likely never use them but they are in my firearms tool box, and when I go shooting that box goes with me. I hate not being able to shoot because something went sideways and I couldn't clear it one way or the other safely. Especially considering time to range, range fee's, gas and food and drink (water mostly, never booze of any kind when shooting or cleaning, oh ya and re-loading also), going through all that trouble only to have it aborted is shall we say frustrating? :cool:
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The squibs do make you pay attention. Just so you stop when the gun farts instead of going bang you will be okay. BTW a brass rod only cost $8 but the shipping cost as much.
[url]http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=18180&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1286&top_cat=79[/url] ([url]http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=18180&step=4&showunits=inches&id=1286&top_cat=79[/url])
I think age is getting the better of me (turned 51 today).....Will have to start slowing down and paying more attention.... :laugh:
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DUDE! HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!! AS THEY SAY LIVE AND LEARN, BUT ESPECIALLY LIVE TO LEARN
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Thanks!!