Author Topic: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho  (Read 8259 times)

b5.5dan

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Re: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2011, 02:24:06 PM »
OK. I understand that a vest won't stop a knife; I understand the physics behind that. I am also going to go ahead and assume (even though we know what happens when you do that  :cheesy: ) that if you need to penetrate body armor, a 9mm will trump a .40. However, I am going to assume that for 99.9% of my home and personal defense, the BGs (I hate that band! haha) are not going to be wearing armor. I have nothing in my house that a perp would risk being "defended against" in the face for.

In all honesty though, I started with the .40 because I thought it would be stronger than the 9 and cheaper and easier to manage in a handgun than .45. From what I am hearing the more I look though, it actually sounds like the .45 is easier to deal with than the .40. I would likely do it differently if I had it all to do again, but I have about $800 into the caliber, and, well, one or two rounds of it stashed away for a rainy day.

I have the .380 which, for most (and I repeat most) situations I would feel comfortable using as a self defense round, but that's because under NO stress I can put 10/10 rounds in the head-shaped part of the silhouette at 12 yards. Also, I can't imagine firing a .45 through a weapon designed for deep concealment. The .380, as we all know, is not an ideal round.But unless the BG is on PCP (not common in my area) or heavily armored, I think it would be enough to make him think twice. Meth is common (all too common) in my area, but from what I understand it doesn't allow people to keep going the way the PCP does.

I guess that on top of my desperate need to purchase a 9mm to save on ammo, I will also have to get something in at least a .45, just to be sure.

Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho
« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2011, 03:40:24 PM »
 
     Here's the deal: First off yes you are correct. The likely hood that the average person on the street or at home is going to be up against anyone wearing armor is remote to say the least. So ya .380 or the .40 will definitely do the trick. Well actually start off with the .40 and if you have to, fall back to the .380                   :grin: .
 
     The other thing you need to know about armor is that the threat levels I mentioned are for specific calibers moving at a designated max speed, and with the average composition as made by Commercial Manufactures.
 
     A considerable amount of folks do not know or understand that there are 2 different types of rounds; sub-sonic, and supersonic. Nor do they realize that the same caliber is made in both speeds. There is such a thing as a "Slow" 357, 9mm, .45 and so on. Then there are the so called "Fast" rounds in the very same calibers. Basically what I am trying to say is that you or anyone can buy Sub-sonic or supersonic ammunition in the same caliber. Keep in mind that at Sea Level the sound barrier is roughly 1100 to 1150 fps, and the higher you go the higher the speed has to be to break the sound barrier ("supersonic")
 
     So because there is ammunition that can be either/or, they have specific levels of body armor to meet the threat. Once again the level of protection you need is a matter of just what the threat level you are likely to engage. 9mm sub sonic, 9mm supersonic, and then you have the 9mm fired from a sub machinegun that because of the longer barrel is traveling a whole lot faster than a 9mm fired from even a 6" barrel. I used the 9 only as a reference point the same thing goes for any kind of ammunition that can be used in various weapons all of which have some effect on just how fast the round is traveling when it impacts the vest. So if you are wearing a Level IIA vest which is meant for rounds traveling at sub sonic speeds and you encounter someone use Super Sonic rounds that IIA is not going to stop the round from going through and actually entering your body. It WILL go a long way to increasing your life expectancy because it has slowed down and deformed the round hopefully enough that if it does break the skin it doesn’t enter as far nor do as much damage as it was intended to.
 
     The one thing that cracks me up is when I see a high value Person of Interest (good or bad) and the Police have them wrapped up in a US Military soft body armor field jacket for the protection of the person of interest. Ya well not so much and well don't hold your breath waiting for that to work out. If they are using an old Vietnam flak jacket/field jacket then anyone with a decent weapon firing supersonic rounds is going to take that person out every time ok presuming the shooter has a clue about how to use the weapon in question properly. That vest won't stop a 38 plus p let alone anything faster. As for the new models of field jackets, those are Supposed to be able to counter anything up to and including sub machine gun fire. There is NOT a single piece of SOFT body armor in the World that is capable of stopping either an AP round let alone Rifle fire. To stop those you had best be wearing hard armor as in Level III or Level IV armor with the plates inserted. Then again any and all armor is worthless when it comes down to head shots from any kind of weapon.
 At this point I'm wondering if I should start a board or just a thread callwd "Everything you never wanted to know about body armor and some things you did"
« Last Edit: June 12, 2011, 03:52:16 PM by GhostWarrior »
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b5.5dan

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Re: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho
« Reply #17 on: June 12, 2011, 03:47:52 PM »
At this point I'm wondering if I should start a board or just a thread callwd "Everything you never wanted to know about body armor and some things you did"

I think you should. You seem to have quite a bit of useful knowledge on the topic!

Also, apart from the level of noise generated, what is the point of super/subsonc ammunition?

Crusty Deary Old Coot

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Re: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho
« Reply #18 on: June 12, 2011, 04:09:29 PM »
 :cheesy: :cheesy: WOW, your waaaay past me :shocked: :shocked: ,  not problems with the info, but all I'm trying to do is find out which one of the CZs rings my bell.
 
So, anything past that is a bonus.
 
Keep em coming!
 
Crusty Deary Ol'Coot

Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho
« Reply #19 on: June 12, 2011, 04:25:19 PM »
     
     Cost for the most part b5.5dan, and a slower round has less punch through than a supersonic round, plus the added bonus of actually having any meat left to eat if you are hunting four legged critters especially the small ones.
 
     As far as your mentioning someone on PCP or Meth, I would refer you to the post I made that said something along the lines of 3 in the chest and 2 in the head. You could go with double taps (2 in the chest) and one in the head, but that is for the more experienced shooters since in any sort of confrontation especially one that has firearms involved, and the proceeds to devolve into a fire fight, the average person's, (including LEO's) IQ drops by as much as 20 points. Thrown in terror and a lack of practice or experience and you get flyers, so double plus one is not a good idea for the average shooter. Actually a great many people would tell you to simply put every last round into the torso. Which all in all is a good idea for pretty much everyone to follow? However I maintain that because you (as the shooter defending life. limb, family and property) have no idea if the hostile is on any sort of Medication it would behoove you to save at least 1 if hot 2 rounds for his, hers, or its head.
 
     Back in the dark ages when I was on the job, I rolled on a call for back up. When I arrived the orginal officer was down basically only hurt luckily and 4 other officers were trying to rest range the hostile. By this time we all had a pretty good idea that the guy was on PCP and we were in trouble. I jumped in and when more back up showed up a couple of them jumped in to help also. Long story short, it took 6 officers to restrain a 5 foot 6 buck thirty or forty guy, and in the process the guys arm sustained a compound break with the bone sticking out about 4 inches. He never even had a clue it had happened. He Still fought tooth and nail even after we had him down.
 
     So that’s why I say save 2 for the head. Because someone like that can and will take multiple rounds in the torso and still come after you until they bleed out. (And forget the bull about a person getting shot and flying backwards even wearing a vest. That is total Movie/TV make believe, it just doesn't happen I promise you.). However I have never seen nor heard of anyone staying on their feet let alone continuing to come after you after they take 1 or 3 in the head. If they do then my recommendation is that you beat feet, didi mau, haul butt, for any other place at all and let them have whatever they came for as long as it isn't a family member. The pets are on their own, bugger the SPCA or PETA
 .
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Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: Morn'in from Ideeeeeeeeho
« Reply #20 on: June 12, 2011, 04:53:18 PM »
Crusty Deary Old Coot
     Oh! Ya sorry about that. Well the simply answer is I haven't got a clue. (ask my wife she will confirm it  :laugh: ). You like the .40 and for personal protecting for home or CCW, in the average day in day out sort of thing. Then .40 is a good choice, double check the cost of the ammo between it and a .45 but CZ doesn't have any of those yet so get a CZ in ,40. Honest They are great people to work with and talk to if there is any sort of issue with what ever weapon you decide on.
      You mentioned that you did not want to have much of anything to do with any sort of Alloy and I respect your feelings. You seemed to be OK with Polymer weapons so you could go with the CZ P07 Duty. http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-p07-duty/. This is one shiny piece of craftsmanship. It's a polymer frame with a steel slide. The Duty comes in at 1.7 lbs and has a 12 round Mag. 
     If you can get past your distaste for alloys or light alloy's then I would seriously go with the CZ P06 which is a compact, holds 10 rnds, rubber grips and only 1.8 lbs. http://www.cz-usa.com/products/view/cz-p06/, and if you care about stuff like this then you might like to know that this puppy is the only NATO Spec pistol available to the public and it has past the US Armies Reliablity test with room to spare.
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Welcome Home every Veteran and active Service personnel and Thank you from the bottom of my heart for your sacrifice