BATF

[GhostWarrior]

     Has this Country lost its MIND?!!!!    in the last 48 hours it has been reported and confirmed that the BATF allowed more than a 1000, firearms to enter Mexico with the complete and total knowledge that the Weapons were going to drug gangs!!!!!!!!!!!!!!    WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!On one hand BATF will hound and threaten with jail time if any citizen that makes one small error in his paperwork or harass an FFL holder to the point it is almost counterproductive to pay for one. yet the BATF will turn around and knowing and willing aid and abet the illegal sale of thousands of weapons to gang members! And it's coming to light now because one of those weapons was used to kill Our agent in Mexico.
 
     Ok I know it's been 20 years easy since I was any sort of LEO, so they may have changed the rules but the last time I checked the Government, local, city, state OR federal could NOT break the law to enforce the law. At best it was considered entrapment and illegal and at worst some LEO actually went to jail for corruption, along with the DA's that sanctioned the operation.
 
    This is no different that the Ollie North debacle and the infamous drugs for weapons operation. And I know people went to jail for a long time over that. Yet Here we have not only the BATF and I would Have to believe Customs allowing weapons into gang member hands and in at least the very provable case one of those weapons was used in a murder. The folk’s responsible are in fact now accessories to Murder, Accessories to planning a Murder, Accessories in the murder of a Federal agent. Smuggling, and assorted other charges. Malfeasance in office, corruption, adding and abating, Dereliction of duty. Action unbecoming of a Federal Employee, and more abuse of power.
 
     Any bets on anyone from the Government getting arrested let alone going to jail? We Seriously need to clean our own house before we start pointing fingers at other countries for corruption and lawlessness. Maybe the rules/laws did change in the last 20 years and it's ok for the government to violate every law we have but not for anyone else?

[Angryvikingman]

I agree. Too long has the government prodded the public with the old addage "Do as I say, not as I do." and I'm tired of it. This is one in many of a long train of abuses. I say boot the guilty out on their arse, and then put them under the jail. I don't mean the little people who were told to follow orders or lose their job, I mean the politicians who ordered it, and any who knew about it and didn't try to stop it.

[GhostWarrior]

     Seriously, I am not kidding nor exazadutating here, Everyone single person that knew about that operation is either Guilty of internation trafficking in illegal arms sales, Accessory before or after the fact for murder (they KNEW the weapons were going to gangs and KNOW gangs were going to use those weapons to kill (Murder) other gang members and or Federalise or Police. So They can not legally duck the murder charge or the conspiracy to commit murder. both of civilans and law enforcement and military personal.
 
    Actually not to put to fine a point on it I think the people involved actual have now place the US in an active State of War with Mexico, since we supplied weapons knowing that they would be used to kill Mexican Military, Police, and civilians. If nothing else the international trafficking in illegal firearms is a Felony all by itself and a declaration of war against Mexico.
 
Seriously. Those gang/drug dealers have so many armed followers they literally have their own Armies and those drug dealers are destabilising Mexico with their "Armies" The US has supplied weapons to these "Armies" so by definition we declared war. QED

[Angryvikingman]

Yep! Its a sad state of affairs. I'm just waiting until the economy collapses, SHTF, and we get invaded/martial law declared. I'll fly my Gadsden flag high and yell "MOLON LABE!" when they come.

[GhostWarrior]

Actually I think the entire Martial law thing would break down in about a week, if in fact the Economy went totally south, (although frankly I can't see how it can Get any further south than it all ready is), for the simple reason that well over (or I think the figures are) 2/3rds of the US Military are living on welfare, food stamps and working 2 jobs. (Sort of like Disney Workers, just without getting the free rides, and discounts on food and drinks). So if there is no economy there is no welfare, then there is no military, because they sure as hell aren't going to fight other US citizens for free. And without the military say adios to Martial law.

[Squirrelly85]

I agree, martial law is only declared when a small population of people run out of control but the government still maintains its military strength and funding.  Personally, I think that once the economies full effects set in (when the gov can't print any more money and have exhausted all their borrowing abilities and the dollar turns into just a fancy piece of paper holding 0 value a lot like post-nazi germany economy) the people will begin to revolt against the gov.  Local law enforcement will be the first line of defense and will quickly disappear as they either realize they can't "win" or join the fight.  Marshall Law may be instituted but without a significant military force they will do the same things as the police.  Looting, rioting, all that good stuff that comes along with social/economical collapse will happen also.  People will have to do those things though to survive.  Another "super-power" may "invade" or simply move in and try to restore order in their image perhaps.


Personally, I would look for the tall tail signs:  State govs loosing control over their people or altering their agendas drastically; commodities like gasoline and food sky rocket alarmingly fast; Foreign enemies sensing our weakness begin to flex their muscle at us.  Just remember history repeats itself.


I know what I'm going to do.  Forget the riots and looting.  I'm packing up all the canned goods and bottled water I have, loading every magazine I have, packing the rest of the essentials in the truck and driving to Canada.  Anyone in my way will be moved.  And if you want to join my you have 24 hours to get to my official starting point at a base in the great lakes region.

[Angryvikingman]

You take the north, and I'll take the south. I'll be in the foothills of appalachia, as far down the hollow as I can get. One place the government won't go is Deliverance country.

[Squirrelly85]

I never thought about going, then again I've never been to that area of the states before either so it stands to reason.  I like the upper Yukon simply because in the few times I've been there, you can only access portions of it by automobile and then the forest get so thick the tanks can't even penetrate it.  There is a significant abundance of food and the ability to make good shelters.  Yes you will need to bring your parka and snow boots but the spring and summer aren't bad.  Hell, if the Indians could do it, then I'm sure I can atleast figure a few things out in the way of survival.  Also, I'm on the same page, who's gonna go looking for someone in the freaking Yukon forests of canada?

My buddy and I have our own little "plan" for when the inevitable crap hits the fan.  I have 24 hours to make it to his house, and although that seems easy enough, I live 35 miles away and will need to fight through a population roughly 2.8 million people to get to his place.  BTW, he has wayyyyyy more guns and ammo then I do.  From there we do a quick head count, contact whomever we can, and pack up and head to the base I me mentioned earlier for "resupply".  Then we head up to our spot and hopefully won't encounter too much crap on the way.

As for what the BATF is doing, I simply have lost faith in my countries leaders abilities to make clear, rational, and moral decissions. I love my country and what it stands for, in the traditional sense, but these people that we elect don't have our best interests at heart.  And double dealing, is simply wrong.  I'm not niave, I know that while there are a lot of illegal gun sales done all over the world by independents, the united states is still selling more guns to both it's enemies and friends then any gun running war lord on the planet.  It just strikes me as odd that with all the things this country invests in and shmoozes from other countries that it is still this screwed up financially.  It's like the government is an 18 year old high school girl who just got her first credit card with a 15 trillion dollar limit.

As I said, I love my country, I would rather it didnt implode under it's vindictive and capitalistic nature.  But as my grandfather always told me, hope for the best and prepare for the worst.  And I stand by my quote from the declaration of independence below.  Perhaps it's time to let our own government understand that while we give them the power to lead us, we have the right and responsibility to remove them from power if they abuse that power.

[Angryvikingman]

Lol!

[Ripster]

Thanks !  Lots Of Love---- to you too ! 
.
.
.
.
.
....Omnia mihi lingua graeca sunt  !!
 
 

[GhostWarrior]

  OK guys! This is starting to get personal and that is not an option here. I sure as hell HOPE no one is talking sedation here or anywhere else. I have had my fill of stupid People, Militias, and racists.
 
Ripster I am 60 years old, I will let you do the math and figure out where I got to see the Elephant for the first time. I have no idea how old you are, I think you said not I'm not going back to find it, if I did I could probably do the math and take a decent guess in which sandbox you got to face the Elephant for the first time. (Oh and not to put to fine a point on it I Volunteered freely of my own will because I do love this Country) {NOT DID DO!}Which of the 4.5 Clubs (Army, Marines, Airforce, Navy and the half is the Puddle Pirates) you belonged to or your POS is moot. Or if you were a member of one of the NSP Secret Societies is also moot.
 
Taking the long way around what I am trying to say is that:
 
      A) Believing in and loving your Country and the people and things it stands for is totally different than Believing in, or even trusting the ruling body (in our case the US Government). I don't know about you or any of the other veterans we have as members have seen or heard as Latrine Gossip, but I can tell you for a fact, that depending on which party is in control at the time the level of corruption and self intrest goes beyond the pale. It's simply a matter of how far beyond the pale which group is willing to go to stay in power. A person would have to be deaf, dumb, blind and without a sense of touch not to KNOW our Government has problems. BUT the proper way is to vote the bastards out and we all know the People really are to lazy and or disillusioned to even try anymore. However that is the ONLY way I will support any change of government.
 
     B) UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES am I, or anyone I know, advocating any sort of revolt, cessation, overthrow or any other thing you can think of that would bring down our government!!!! NOT NOW NOT EVER. I WILL fight any one that does try to do so, I Will Fight for the US Government in such circumstances as long as they didn't start the fight other than within the LEGAL Limits of voting. I may not like the government we have, I may despise the way it does business and treats it's own people but unless it turns into a Totalitarian State than it's OUR Government and I will defend it.
 
     C) Look around can you not see the fear rising everyday? Can you seriously blame anyone for Not trying to be perpared for the worst? I Sincerely Believe that no one here is saying they want to start a war or overthrown the Government. What they are saying is that they only want to be prepared to protect their families from other Civilians if and when things go South. That is our RIGHT! THAT is what you, I and every other person has fought for in years past and are still fighting for to this day. If I every found out or had cause to believe any member here was instigating any sort of over throw I would personally report them to the FBI, and assist in anyway I could to stop the offenders.
 
This Board is called a Free Fire Zone for a reason. It's for folks to blow off some steam, and also to play "What If?" games. It is not for personal attacks on anyone, religion, or political views. If anyone thinks other wise then they are invited to exit the building, Google the word Fasist, and when you find a group you like join them because you will not be allowed back here. Other than that, my advise is to either put forth a reasonal argument or plan be prepared to defend it rationally, and then duck and cover.

[Angryvikingman]

I'm not in favor of overthrowing anything, BUT I am getting prepared for the worst. I fly my Gadsden flag and let my feelings be known. If it comes down to it, I stand on the side of freedom, even if it costs me my life.

[Squirrelly85]

I agree with GW and AVM.  By citing my quote, I'm simply applying an old phrase to the current times.  In todays day and age there are better, less violent ways to voice your opinions, enlist the correct leadership, and correct the matters that concern you.  I would never suggest a revolt, secession, or overthrow of my government.  This country, despite its current economical state of affairs, is the best country I know of.  And yes I have been fortunate enough to visit other countries even some outside of this continent to know and understand the difference.


I have never experienced war myself, however I have had plenty of friends and family who have spilled the same blood in the same mud as GW and countless others, and I would never take their experiences or their love for this country for granted...it's not only an insult but a huge slap in the face to them.


And yes I am preparing for the worst, you would be a fool not to.  To see it from a different perspective, do you have a savings account, 401k/b, pension?......It's the same principle.  I have purchased a means to defend my family and friends if or when something does happen that would cause them harm from another person or group.


As GW said, this is simply a way to voice a few concerns, opinions, view points, questions, and even possible fears.  No one can truly know what will happen in the future.  A year ago, I never would have though that we'd be at war with Lybia and yet here we are (and I say war only because I someone threw a few tomahawk cruise missiles at me, I would consider that an act of war-like aggression).

[GhostWarrior]

     For what it's worth, even if none has to use the things they think they may need to survive someday, their children and their children may. Leaving behind things we may think will help our families and our country maintain their and it's freedom is as old as the country is. Freedom is won on a permanent basis, There will allways be someone somewhere trying to take that freedom away, Freedom is earned by every generation. We have no control over what may happen after we are gone, Mostly because being dead or taking an extended dirt nap makes doing anything rather remote. The only thing we have is the ability to leave our children the tools, ideals, and the hope of a better future. I wish we lived in a better world, and frankly I am a littel bitter that the Sci-Fi, Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and other magazines got it so very wrong. No flying cars, jetpacks, 8 hour work weeks, safer cars, working from home, holographic or 3-D television sets, better medicines, safer world, all wrong. Not even close, so it in my humble opinion it would be not only foolish but inexcusable if we didn't at least think to the future and plan for worst case. The world is leaning futher and further towards chaos every day.
 
     On the plus side, if it turns out peace and enlightenment are just around the corner and everything we worried about was wrong, then at worst the kids have stuff to sell on eBay as collectables. I would rather waste the time and effort trying to protect the future generations than not doing it and our descendants are left with nothing. Again not that we will ever know (Hopfully), how things work out in the end but we will have done Something where others have done nothing. And that ladies and gentleman is not for nothing.