Author Topic: Pre B and modern CZ magazines  (Read 18033 times)

glockamolee

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Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« on: March 01, 2014, 08:28:12 PM »
Can I use modern mfg mags by CZ and Mec-Gar in my pre-b? I note capacities from 16-19 rounds depending if the pistol is a cz75-b or SP 01.

Offline chfields

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2014, 09:53:29 PM »
Welcome to our forum!! I do believe that you cannot use a "new" mag made for the 75B in a pre B 75, however, the pre B mags I do believe work in the 75 B pistols. I hope this helps...
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Offline Angryvikingman

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2014, 03:31:39 AM »
I thought the new mags would fit in the pre b, but the pre b mags wouldn't fit in the new guns. Maybe I got it backwards. GW knows for sure...

Offline GM4469

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2014, 08:06:57 AM »
The current 16 and 17 rnd mags don't fit Pre B guns unless you modify the magwell. Current SP01 mags and 10 rnd mags will fit Pre B . So some alternatives.

Frame mod is not difficult either.
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Radom

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2014, 09:54:56 PM »
I'm probably going to come across like an @$$, since this is my first post here, but here goes...

There's a LOT of misinformation out there on so-called "Pre-Bs."  First, neither CZ-UB or CZ-USA use the term "pre-B."  You won't find any original Czech-language sources that use the term "pre-B." 

75B/85B pistols have an automatic internal firing pin block safety.  The "B" doesn't stand for "block," or so I have been told.  Back in 2002, Martin Brodson, the former VP of CZ-USA, informed me that this just a coincidence.  That is, "B" just happens to be the second letter in the Roman alphabet.   

I emailed CZ-USA recently for further clarification, because the Czech verb for "block" also starts with "b."  Specifically, the Czech-language version of "firing pin block" is "blokování zápalníku."  That is derived from the Czech verb for "block," or "blokovat/zablokovat."  The most common noun for "block" is "špalek."  (I mention this because I always think of it as a noun, not a verb.) 

CZ-UB uses the terms "Type A" and "Type B."  Most collectors refer to a significant Type A variant as "Transitional."  As far as I can tell, "Transitional" was not a term originally used by CZ-UB.  CZ-UB's own book on the subject, CZ 75: The Birth of a Legend, by Pazdera & Skramoussky, doesn't even discuss the existence of Transitional models at all, much less use the term. 

Serial production of Type A pistols began in 1977 and ran to 1992.  They do not have an automatic internal firing pin block safety device.   As a general rule, they have spur hammers, rather than the current rounded style.  As a general rule, they have a rounded, rather than square, trigger guard.  Although most people associate the round trigger guard and spur hammer with the Type A, there are variants made for a contract with the Turkish Armed Forces from 1988 with a rounded hammer, just for example. 

The original CZ 75 design had some internal improvements in the firing pin system from 1977-1979 and added a half-cock notch in 1980. Also, the external appearance changed from the flat "short-rail" design to the current design in 1980.  The magazine well has become larger over time; a significant change in size occurred sometime in 1985. 

Relatively few Type A pistols were imported into the U.S. through normal channels prior to 1991.  Prior to 1991, there were severe importation restrictions on arms from Warsaw Pact nations.  Changes in the Fed. regulations and the status of the CSSR allowed these pistols to be imported on a larger scale beginning in 1992.  "Pre-Ban" is a misleading/confusing term, because the differences in Type A and Type B pistols were not dependent on Fed. regulations per se, but they definitely played a major factor.  The BATF uses a "points system" for importing foreign-manufactured handguns, and the automatic internal firing pin block does aid in their importation.  (Significantly, the 85 Combat model does not have the block, but it has other features that give it off-setting "points.")  The automatic internal firing pin block safety was designed and tested in 1991-1992. 

For many years, most Type A pistols in the U.S. were 1985-1987 models imported by Bauska of Kalispell, MT.  According to internet myth, the BATF fined Bauska out of existence, but I have not been able to confirm this.   Most of the rest were Frankonia models purchased in the former West Germany by U.S. servicemen.  Frankonia essentially purchased 75/85 series pistols and "customized" them in order to "legalize" them for sale in Western Europe.  Some Frankonia models are heavily modified (finish, sights, trigger, etc.) and some are just "re-branded" CZ-UB models. 

In the last 10 years or so, quite a few Type A military or police surplus pistols have been imported as "used" guns, so it would be helpful to inquire about the import markings.  The Bauska imports are marked "Bauska/Kalispell, MT."  The used pistols imported more recently will have various import markings.  The Frankonia pistols will not have import markings. 

In 1995, the Type B models were introduced. These are also called the "B series," etc. in Czech-language sources.  Both the CZ 75B and CZ 85B replaced the earlier models. Type B 75/85 series pistols have the automatic internal firing pin block, a square trigger guard, modernized external controls, and a rounded hammer. The current CZ 85 Combat resembles a Type B frame, but lacks its true defining characteristics: the automatic internal firing pin block safety and the lever that actuates it. The B series also marked the debut of most 75 series variants. That is, there is no Type A CZ 75 in .40 S&W, with a decocker instead of a manual safety, etc. CZ-USA has only imported Type B 75/85 series pistols (unless you count the 85 Combat as some sort of exception). These are by far the more common handguns in the U.S.

"Transitional" models were manufactured from 1992-1994.  In my mind, these are best understood as a major Type A variant.  Essentially, these are handguns produced with a Type A slide on what appears to be a Type B frame. A "transitional" does not have a Type B frame in the strictest sense, since it lacks the firing pin block lever. In other words, these models have a square trigger guard and rounded hammer like a Type B, but they have the slide and external controls of a Type A. I have seen pics of 1994 transitional models with the modernized external controls associated with the Type B.  There are also transitional CZ 85s, but identification gets very complicated, as the Type A 85 Lux and 85 Combat models were the basis of the Type B pistols. Transitional pistols are comparatively rare (due to the short time they were produced), but Magnum Research and Action Arms imported these models in some quantity, so they are not particularly rare in the U.S.  The Action Arms and Magnum Research imports seem to be 1993-1994 models. 
 
To Answer Your Actual Question:  It depends.

The older 15 round Mec-Gar magazines will fit Transitionals.  They may be tight, but they will fit and function.  I don't own any of the 16 round Mec-Gars, but I have been told that they fit as well. 

The 15 round Mec-Gar magazines fit in my '86 Type A 75, but they are extremely tight.  They will fit and function in my '82 Type A 75, but they are too tight for reliability.  They are incredibly difficult to insert and remove, and using them creates visible drag marks on the mag body.  The '86 will mark the bluing, but not actually stress/mar the metal itself.  Based on my reading, this is pretty consistent with other peoples' results.  In other words, the further back you go, the more problems you will have with them.  Both of these still have the magazine brake installed.  Don't remove the brake, by the way.  (I can elaborate if necessary.) 

The OEM CZ 15 round magazines that pre-date CZ-UB switching to Mec-Gar fit better in Type A pistols.  They are tight in the '82, but they are "correct" for the '86, as far as I can tell.  I bought mine from CZ-USA in 2001.  Another one I have came with my '96 75B Mil, which I purchased in 2000, IIRC. 

All of the "short-rail" Type As I have seen came with magazines marked with the pistol's serial number.  That's probably not a good sign.  I have been informed by another member that most of these serial #s are etched, but I have seen photos of a few that had the serial # stamped into the magazine body.

My '82 and '86 Type As only came with one magazine each.  The cardboard box for the '86 only has one magazine "slot."  The box, manual, and accessories for the '82 were long gone when I purchased it. 

The magazine that came with the '82 didn't have a serial # marking, but it is virtually identical to the Czech OEM magazines I purchased in 2000-2001.  It is slightly thinner at the top of the mag body.  The older Czech mag has a lighter finish than the later ones.  (It's blued, but it looks sort of "grey.") 

The magazine that came with the '86 Bauska is completely identical to the Czech magazines that I purchased in 2000-2001.  I could probably get them all out and identify it, because it was marked by the magazine break.   

I also have a '93 Action Arms Transitional, but the two magazines that came with it were beat to hell.  I seem to recall that one was a Tanfoglio magazine, and the other was the same as the Czech magazines I have described.  I'm not sure if that pistol was supposed to come with one or two magazines. 

« Last Edit: April 30, 2014, 08:31:06 PM by Radom »

Radom

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 10:11:59 PM »
Forgot to answer part of the original question...

Older magazines will always fit and function in the Type B pistols. 

Also, the converted 10 round magazines that were made with the older Czech magazine bodies may be a viable option.  I sold mine to someone that couldn't find mags to fit his '87 Bauska, and they worked for him, also. 

Radom

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2014, 08:26:49 PM »
I have been thinking about the magazines quite a bit today, and I dug up a post on another forum that I made back in 2008.  All of the information was much "fresher" in my mind back then, and I had done a lot of research and comparing notes with other owners around that time.  I'm rather pleased that I still remembered most of the important issues/dates, but this older post has a little more "fine detail." 

Here's the post from 2008:


"Almost all OEM CZ magazines are currently manufactured by Mec-Gar as their subcontractor. This change occurred around 2000 or so, and the magazine capacity increased to 16 rounds at some point afterwards. B models were sold from 1995-2000 with Czech OEM 15 round magazines.  I am not sure of the exact date of the switch, because the Crime Bill prevented us from getting 16 round magazines for a few years.  Only 15 round Czech OEM magazines were "grandfathered."  The reason is that the Mec-Gar follower is different than the much thicker OEM follower used until 2000.  I own quite a few 15 round Mec-Gar "aftermarket" magazines that I purchased from CDNN, but I do not own any of the newer Mec-Gar 16 round magazines.  I presume that if you purchased a CZ-UB 9mm pistol overseas, there was a period when the Mec-Gar magazines that came with the pistol were still only 15 rounders. 

OEM magazines manufactured prior to 2000 tend to fit the older pistols. The magazine well has gradually become larger on the 75/85 series over time.

From 1977 to 1985, the CZ 75 had a slightly smaller magazine well than from 1986 to present. OEM magazines from 1977 to about 2000 or so will fit the older frame. The newer Mec-Gar magazines (2000 to present) typically do not fit the 1977-1985 frames.  All of the "short-rail" 75s I have seen in photos had the pistol's serial number stamped into the magazine body, but I have never seen one in person. 

Some 1977 to 1985 frames will not always accept 1986-2000 OEM magazines. Typically, one or more factors are involved, from what I can tell. These include: 1) Smaller magazine frames; 2) Replacement grips screws which are too long; 3) Imperfections in the magazine well like burrs; 4) The magazine brake is still bent and functioning; and 5) Quality control of the magazines.

In monkeying around with my 1982 CZ 75, I accidentally straightened the magazine brake while trying various magazines. It will now even work with the new Mec-Gars if the pistol heats up a bit first. You still cannot insert a "new" magazine if it is loaded and cold."

Hope this helps.

Offline rbmcmjr

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2014, 11:22:33 AM »
  Both of these still have the magazine brake installed.  Don't remove the brake, by the way.  (I can elaborate if necessary.) 

I'd like to know your reasoning.  I hate the way the brake works on my CZs and removed them. 

Rick

Radom

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2014, 01:14:09 AM »
  Both of these still have the magazine brake installed.  Don't remove the brake, by the way.  (I can elaborate if necessary.) 

I'd like to know your reasoning.  I hate the way the brake works on my CZs and removed them. 

Rick

There are two issues at play.  Both of these are more or less Type A issues; that is, if you remove the magazine brake on a Type B, this isn't such a big deal. 

1) If you remove the original OEM brake on an older CZ and either bend it or replace it with a current manufacture "flat" brake, there is no guarantee that the magazines will drop free.  In other words, this isn't a question of the viability of having no brake per se,  but the likelihood of obtaining the desired result (mags that drop free) if you remove and alter/change the brake.  From what I can tell, the most likely outcomes are either a) breaking the part (they are quite brittle); or b) the mags still hang up.  The main cause seems to be that the farther back you go, the smaller the mag well.

As I mentioned in another thread, the pins will also drift like crazy after removing them in the older pistols.  These can easily be replaced, but if you are trying to keep the pistol in more or less original condition/configuration, you now have two potential problems.  That is, a broken mag brake, and/or pins that won't stay in the grip frame when the grips are removed.   

2) Since I haven't completely removed the magazine brakes in my pistols, I am now relying on the reports of other owners.  Apparently, if you completely remove the magazine brake on the older frames, you may encounter issues with the magazines feeding and functioning properly.  To clarify, all of these pistols have some sort of brake, whether bent or flat, A or B, etc.  It's main function seems to be to guide the magazine into position, but it may also affect feed and function depending on your magazines, year of production, etc.  In general, people who owned both old and new style magazines would find that the newer magazines fit better, but the older style magazines became unreliable because they were no longer being held in the "correct" position. 

FWIW, most gunsmiths will also tell people to bend the standard mag brake or replace it with the "flat" version, rather than completely removing it.  I definitely wouldn't send a pistol to CZ-USA for warranty work without a brake in place, for that matter! 

Radom

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2014, 07:46:32 PM »
I've gone back to a few sources and made some edits to my first post in this thread.  Nothing major, a lot of it was just removing some vague wording, because I had the time to check some of the dates. 

In particular, someone was kind enough to post pictures of a 1992 Transitional CZ-75 on another forum.  This now makes two of these I have seen in photos, but I have also seen true Type A '92 CZ-75s with the rounded trigger-guard and spur hammer.  In other words, the "transition" occurred in 1992. 

Also, here are some photos that should help.

The first one was taken by another CZ owner who gave me permission to use it, because mine are not that great or clear.

Pictured from top to bottom: CZ-75B, Transitional CZ-75, and Type A CZ-75. 




Here are my photos.  Pictured from top to bottom: '96  CZ-75B Mil, '93 Transitional CZ-75, and '86 Type A CZ-75.




Close-up of my '93 Transitional CZ-75.




Close-up of my '86 Type A CZ-75.




Just for fun, here's an old "family photo."  Notice the roll pin in the grooves at the rear of all three slides.  Pictured from top to bottom: '98 CZ-97B, '01 CZ-75B SA (9mm), and CZ-75 P-01. 





Offline GhostWarrior

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2014, 09:09:26 PM »
          I have 2 of the Transitionals and if I can find them in the safe I'll post pictures of them. One more thing on my list of things I need to do.

          There is also a transitional .40 I will look for and post pics of it as well.

GW
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Radom

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Re: Pre B and modern CZ magazines
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2014, 01:07:43 AM »
          I have 2 of the Transitionals and if I can find them in the safe I'll post pictures of them. One more thing on my list of things I need to do.

          There is also a transitional .40 I will look for and post pics of it as well.

GW

I'd love to see the .40 S&W and the slide marking.  I've been told that they don't exist, but if CZ-USA ever answers and tells me the "B" is for "block," then I have to consider dismissing the source.