CZ 82 from J&G Sales

[GhostWarrior]

Ok I watched about 30 seconds of that abortion that fool called a test.
 
First off I spent 10 years designing, testing and making body armor, I can say for a fact he is completely and totally incapable of conducting ballistics tests of any kind but certainly ballistics tests on Body Armor. He has not a single clue about the subject and how it to do the tests. For that matter I would go so far as to guess that he would actually do a live fire test while wearing body armor on himself, if someone suggested it. And if I knew who he was I would be happy to suggest he try. The world would be a safer place after the test was over.
 
Second: the guy got everything you could possibly get wrong, wrong. The armor he was using was NOT level III armor. It was at best Level IIIA which is the highest rating you can go in Soft body armor. Level III and Level IV are a combination of Thick (at least 1/4 inch thick) Hard armor plate, (Metal or Ceramic) and Level IIIA soft body armor combined.
 
Third he didn't fix the test piece to the gelatin so pretty much any round he shot at it more than likely could have punched the armor.
 
Fourth he hit it on the edge which automatically makes that a failed test by NIJ and Industry standards.
 
Fifth he didn't use a crony when he did the test so he has no idea how fast that round was going.
 
Sixth: any round that will penetrate Body Armor is considered an AP round and not legal by Federal law to used in any firearm, not even if it's 20 year old ammunition. If you knowingly load a firearm with AP you are going to jail, and for him to say on tape and in public that, that brand of Ammo was AP was reckless and stupid beyond words
 
Seventh: he even said he was told he should be using clay to be testing the armor on and he said ignored the information. That entire so called test was a waste of time and is totally invalidated by his reckless disregard for correct procedure and lack of knowledge on the subject.
 
Eight: from what I saw he was using a really old piece of soft armor to do the test with. Body armor is required to be replaced after 3 to 5 years of use depending on use. It is technically rated to last 10 years but that is under Ideal circumstances which are not likely to happen when work on a daily basis in any and all kinds of weather and conditions. I would also guess it was Kevlar 513 which hasn’t been used in about 15 to 20 years. Almost all body armor made these days is a combination/hybrid of both much more up to date Kevlar and Spectra or Spectra Shield.
 
If anyone doubts that I know what I am talking about when it come to armor ANY armor here is the link to the NIJ sight that covers the entire subject. Frankly I would not be remotely surprised if he was sued for any number of reasons and or arrested or both.
 
I am 100% in favor of and support All of the Amendments to the Bill of Rights especially the First and Second. However there is free speech and then there is reckless disregard for the truth that could get someone seriously hurt and or killed following his advice.

[b5.5dan]

Ill have to find that video and watch it. Do you have a link? Not for info, but for entertainment lol

[lklawson]

Well, I know they are ugly, but the Hi-Point pistols go up to .45ACP and they are very simple blowback designed firearms. But they don't clean easily and are super heavy. It's just a matter of sufficient mass on the slide to overcome the forces of recoil, return to battery, and do so without falling apart... 

No offense intended, b5.5dan, but we had a POS in our town who tried to rob a convenience store owner with a Hi-Point last month. He managed to get off one errant shot. The store owner had a Taurus Judge (loaded with two 410's and three Colt 45's) in his coat pocket and a Glock 27 in his belt. Guess who's still alive? The Hi-Point may use a simple blowback design, but it hardly qualifies as a usable gun... and definitely not a reliable defensive weapon. The CZ-82, on the other hand, is about as elegant and reliable a weapon as can be found anywhere. Again, no offense intended to you, b5.5dan.

Well, first, he's right.  There are simple blowback designs that well exceed that of a Makarov cal. round such as the Astra 400 which shoots a 9mm Largo round which, at the time of its introduction, was considered quite hot and is roughly comparable to the standard 9mm Luger.  Thus, the statement that the Mak round is the largest/most-energetic that can be had in a simple blowback design is just a fun fire-side myth.  It's probably more accurate (and may be based on) to say that a 9x18 Makarov round is the most energetic round that can be safely had in a blowback gun with a slide mass the size/weight of the Walther PPK, upon which basic design pretty much all Mak. cal. handguns are generally based.

As to the Hi Points, I don't want to start one of "those threads" so I'll just say that I've owned and shot several.  The C9 (the 9mm Luger model) is known to sometimes have feed issues which are almost always associated with the magazine not the gun itself (though "limp wristing" is also a frequent issue with the C9).  This is usually "fixed" by a simple adjustment to the mag.  The .45 cal JHP and .40 cal JCP both have solid track records, as do the entire line of Carbines which, it might surprise you to learn, while also being simple blowback designs, have actually been adopted/approved by many Police agencies.  Now, while it can be argued that Hi Point should fix the design of the mags (and I would agree) and that, further, it's silly or, at best, and inconvenience for the end customer to have to fiddle with his mags to fix a common problem, it's simply not accurate to say that Hi Points are "not usable" and not "reliable" when really the problem is that the magazines for only one of their products have problems.  (I'll concede that said one product is the most popular of their handgun line which would, naturally, increase the prevalence of issue.)

I'll leave it go at that and point to the Hi Point forum & associated threads there for further discussion of this issue.

Those two things said, I've never met a Mak. cal. handgun that I didn't like.  :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[cameramon]

As to the Hi Points...  The C9 (the 9mm Luger model) is known to sometimes have feed issues which are almost always associated with the magazine not the gun itself (though "limp wristing" is also a frequent issue with the C9). 

The bad guy in Conway definitely had a feed issue. He got fed 5 rounds from a Judge and another 9 rounds from a Glock. All rounds connected. After laughing about the bad guy's Hi Point, the lead investigator told me it was a sight to behold. (That's not exactly what he said, but you get the idea.)

Perhaps my prejudice against Hi Point has something to do with the large number of violent criminals who use them here in SC because of their low price.

[lklawson]

Well, I can't say that I'll shed a tear for a criminal who gets perforated while engaging in armed robbery, that's for darn sure.

Like I said, it's a "known common issue" for the C9's and I wish HP would just fix the design of the mags so that users wouldn't have to fiddle with them.  It's one thing to be a "rare but known" thing, but this happens too often for comfort.  I was just helping a friend fiddle with his mag less than 24 hours ago.  He is a new shooter with little instruction but was pegging the 10-ring with it at 21' (when he wasn't suffering a feed issue).  He really shouldn't have to fix his own mag, but the argument is often made that for such an inexpensive, otherwise good (read, "accurate, durable, with a great warranty") gun the occasional tweaking of new mags is acceptable.  I don't agree but I see the point.

Honestly, what I think you might find fun is to borrow a .45 or .40 version and just shoot it.  I'm not going to say that they're without their issues.  They're big, ugly, have a low mag capacity, and many aren't enamored of the fact that they're striker fired with no FP block (depending on the sear and the sear alone to prevent FP movement) and use the FP for the Ejector.   But they're accurate and (when the mags are right) reliable.

And here I went back on my own word.  :(

That said, I do think that the CZ82 is a superior weapon in every way with the exception that it uses a lower power cartridge.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

Sixth: any round that will penetrate Body Armor is considered an AP round and not legal by Federal law to used in any firearm, not even if it's 20 year old ammunition.

I'm pretty sure that the legal definition is based on the construction of the bullet itself rather than if it will penetrate a given threat level of armor.  Isn't that why the BATFE banned the Barnes solid bronze bullets?  I'll see if I can find some links.

[edit]
 http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/08/robert-farago/atf-raid-elite-ammunition-confiscate-armor-piercing-brass-bullets/
 http://practicalrifler.6.forumer.com/a/atf-barnes-bullets-banned_post1725.html

• FYI 18 USC 921 a 17 This is supposed to be the latest version. 17) (A)The term “ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm. (B)The term “armor piercing ammunition” means— (i)a projectile or projectile core which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely (excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium copper, or depleted uranium; or (ii)a full jacketed projectile larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of the projectile. (C)The term “armor piercing ammunition” does not include shotgun shot required by Federal or State environmental or game regulations for hunting purposes, a frangible projectile designed for target shooting, a projectile which the Attorney General finds is primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes, or any other projectile or projectile core which the Attorney General finds is intended to be used for industrial purposes, including a charge used in an oil and gas well perforating device

If you knowingly load a firearm with AP you are going to jail, and for him to say on tape and in public that, that brand of Ammo was AP was reckless and stupid beyond words

I agree that was pretty stupid.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[GhostWarrior]

       Here is the link that cameramon posted and I watched for as long as I could without wanting to hunt the idiot down and use him as a test dummy (the guy doing the so called test not [/color]cameramon[/u][/b]  ):

[/color]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTg-TgEpUm0

 
       You know I just now wondered if he didn't used to work for Fox or CNN or Geraldo Rivera? His ability to totally abuse, and disregard any semblance of the truth, presuming he even knows the definition, is right up there with those folks.

[cameramon]

You know I just now wondered if he didn't used to work for Fox or CNN or Geraldo Rivera?

That's a rather ugly thing to say, GhostWarrior. I wouldn't accuse my worst enemy of working for any of those "news" agencies. 

[GhostWarrior]

        Well true enough but what he did wasn't even in the same realm as "News" even by today's "News" standards. That guy is a menace. and yes I know there is jack all I can do and going on about it isn't doing anything except make me personally feel better by letting folks know what he did was so very bogus. End of diatribe.

[heymatthew]

As to the Hi Points...  The C9 (the 9mm Luger model) is known to sometimes have feed issues which are almost always associated with the magazine not the gun itself (though "limp wristing" is also a frequent issue with the C9). 

The bad guy in Conway definitely had a feed issue. He got fed 5 rounds from a Judge and another 9 rounds from a Glock. All rounds connected. After laughing about the bad guy's Hi Point, the lead investigator told me it was a sight to behold. (That's not exactly what he said, but you get the idea.)

Perhaps my prejudice against Hi Point has something to do with the large number of violent criminals who use them here in SC because of their low price.

I'm nearby in Sumter, SC and I went into a pawn shop downtown a couple of weeks ago just to kill some time before lunch and they had a whole case of the Hi Point 9mm and 45's. They ranged in price from $149-229, if I recall. In that neighborhood and at those prices, they're only selling to one type of person and it's the type you mentioned in your post. Someone looking for a cheap, semi-reliable handgun in a hurry for not a lot of money. Something no one will notice among the sea of crappy street weapons already in flux.


I would say that 9 out of 10 criminal shootings I read about around here are with a Hi-Point 9mm. Criminals don't care about quality (although Nicholas Cage had a pretty rad set of guns in Face Off). They just want something disposable that can get the job done and then they can ditch it. The Hi-Point is just that. They have a bad reputation around here. Not because they're unreliable, but because thugs and drug dealers use them as their weapon of choice.

[heymatthew]

I'm interested to see more from this CZ82! Looks like it could be quite the accurate little gun if you do your part (which it looks like you did).

[lklawson]

I'm interested to see more from this CZ82! Looks like it could be quite the accurate little gun if you do your part (which it looks like you did).

The '82s are very accurate (as are most 9x18 handguns) and are the most pleasant of the 9x18 handguns I've shot.  I'll caveat that statement by saying I've not shot a P83 or the FORT12.  But if the P83 is more pleasant to shoot than a CZ82, I'll eat my hat and no one here in the U.S. that I've ever heard of owns a FORT12 (though I'd dearly love to).

The '82 is a great gun, all around.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[lklawson]

I'm nearby in Sumter, SC and I went into a pawn shop downtown a couple of weeks ago just to kill some time before lunch and they had a whole case of the Hi Point 9mm and 45's. They ranged in price from $149-229, if I recall. In that neighborhood and at those prices, they're only selling to one type of person and it's the type you mentioned in your post. Someone looking for a cheap, semi-reliable handgun in a hurry for not a lot of money. Something no one will notice among the sea of crappy street weapons already in flux.

I rather doubt that all, or even most, of those were being sold to drug dealers & other criminals.  Most have records and NICS would exclude them (barring a Straw Sale, of course).  I suspect that they're being sold to every other regular joe thereabouts who wants something to protect himself from aforementioned drug dealers and violent criminals.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

[Powerpuff boy]

Hi HeyMatthew,

If you are interested in the 82, those are good deals:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=569&name=Czech+CZ-82+9x18+Makarov+Pistol

http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-9x18-makarov-military-pistol,-very-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-6779.html

I purchased mine from J&G.  I am happy with it.  But AIM sells it with 2 mags. 

Just for your information 

[heymatthew]

Hi HeyMatthew,

If you are interested in the 82, those are good deals:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/product.aspx?groupid=569&name=Czech+CZ-82+9x18+Makarov+Pistol

http://www.jgsales.com/cz-82-czech-9x18-makarov-military-pistol,-very-good-condition,-one-mag.-c-r.-p-6779.html

I purchased mine from J&G.  I am happy with it.  But AIM sells it with 2 mags. 

Just for your information 

Man... That is such a good deal on a neat pistol. I probably should jump on it, but my wife will kill me. Or at least let me know what it feels like to have a CZ82 implanted in my... Well, you get the idea.


Maybe at the end of the summer when my credit card cools off a bit, she'll let me have one. Or I can just buy one and hide it in my range bag. She doesn't go with me anyway.