CZ 527 Carbine 7.62x39

[spynumber]

I see, but the 7.62x39 is also known as the SKS or Ak round and it is not the .308 which is 7.62x51.
I don't think the SKS round type guns qualify for the Full Bore Prone Rifle.

[russ45]

You are right.  It seems that is for the NATO rifles.  I guess the only thing left is High Power Sporting Rifle.  Handload or get some good ammo.  Don't think the Chinese stuff is going to give you the accuracy you need.

[ZG47]

Check at your local  gunshop to find out if there is a local group doing short range, i.e. less than 300m military rifle shoots. You might not be eligible for any trophies but you could have a lot of fun and learn a lot about positional shooting.
 
One of my friends shoots Lee Enfield rifles (SMLE, No. 4 and No. 5) in service rifle competitions, mostly at 100/200m, with his accurised No. 5 carbines doing very well in mad minute type matches. His wife sometimes does better, but then again she has represented our country in 500-1000 yard competitions.
 
NB (1) Their No. 5 carbines are loaded with Hornady bullets designed for the 7.62x39 and sent out at similar velocity to that cartridge. (2) U.S. manufactured cartridge cases for the 7.62x39 may be short on headspace so don't get too upset if your first shots are less than perfect because you can set your sizing die correctly using the fired cases.

[William Harper]

 
Dec.6, 2011
People are underestimating the potential of the CZ 527 7.62X39mm Carbine and the new full length barrel 527 in this caliber. Here, we are dealing with a strong little mini-Mauser action, not a rattletrap SKS or a Rumanian AK 47 most likely to be heard in the "hood." My goal in hand-loading for this cartridge was to produce a more powerful round than the factory loads deliberately underloaded for the SKS-AK47market. My velocity goal was to send a .311 diameter 150 grain Sierra spitzer soft point for the .303 at a velocity of 2,250 fps from my CZ 527 Carbine. I had loaded the .30-30 for years to ca. 2,150 fps with 150 grain flat points for 20" barreled Marlin and Winchester carbines, because there were few loads in the manuals that would push faster without some risk in hand-loaded older cases yet the hunters congratulated me on the "magnum" loads I had made for them and the devastating effect these had on the bucks they shot. It proved easy to get 2,250 fps with .1 grain above the 28.5 grains cited in the Hodgdon Manual for 2,192 fps with H322 powder in Winchester cases with CCI large rifle primers. This made 100 yard groups under 1". The only problem encountered was the 527 Carbine's barrel heats up. After 3 shots slow fire into 1", I time-fired a 5 shot group into 2.5" dead center with 2Xs, 1(10), 2(9s), then chronographed the load again. It persistently read 2,354 fps. So, I had more than I had expected from a hot barrel. An on-line article by Paco Kelley "Unintended Consequences" gives loads reaching ca. 2,400 fps with the 150 grain, and over 2,600 with the 123-125 grain class of spitzer bullets. A friend, age 76, also a meticulous master hand-loader, gave me 20 rounds of gas-checked hard cast 159 grain bullets loaded to 1,800 fps. I remembered my favorite .303 bullet Lyman 311413, which had weighed 175 grains and ranged very well to 600 meters from my Long Branch No.4 Lee Enfield with great accuracy. What if a moderate 2,000-2,100 fps could be had from the 7.62X39mm well within the pressure range of the cartridge case and CZ 527 action with a 174-180 grain .311 spitzer bullet? I am used to shooting high trajectory weapons to 600 meters. The 180 grain would definitely have an arched trajectory but it would arrive, and given the 1 in 9" twist of the CZ's bore, it might well be both stable and accurate. It is time to look at the powders and data available that were not here twenty years ago. Have I mentioned this cartridge is a powder miser? The 7.62X39mm may well prove able to compete. Who knows how well until we try. Good Shooting to you all.   

[Angryvikingman]

Well, the guys on "Sons of Guns" made a 1000 yard AK47. Undoubtedly the platform is capable of reaching that distance accurately, so a little tinkering and surely you can have a long range competition rifle.

[William Harper]

Dec. 15, 2011

My Fellow Marksmen:
Today, the .311 Sierra Match King 174 grain boat-tailed spitzer bullets arrived and I repaired my loading bench. The bullets seem to be able to fit the 7.62X39mm case within the length limitations of the CZ 527 magazine. I am backing off my successful 150 grain bullet 28.6 grain H322 load to 25.6 grains, which will give a little in-case room lessening powder charge compression and improving ignition by the CCI Large Rifle Primers.  I am using new Winchester brass. There were no excessive pressure signs with the 150 grain bullet's propelling charge mentioned above. All that I lack right now are the 30mm rings to mount my long range scope. I feel confident that either CZ USA or Leupold can provide them.
Another problem is that my range is limited to 600 meters. Thus, I'll try for good groups at 600 meters before seeking a 1000 meter range. I should be able to see whether my load is good or whether it may be safely increased. So far the CZ 527 Carbine has shot splendidly with all .311 bullets. This experiment may soon show how far this can reach.
I believe that with the speed of this compact bolt action plus the light recoil, it could prove a formidable competitor. Good shooting to you all.
William Harper, Ph.D.+
 

[William Harper]

Dec. 27, 2011
My Fellow Marksmen:
I have hand-loaded 12 rounds of 7.62X39mm with Sierra .311 
174 grain HPBTs over 25.6 grains of H322 powder over CCI 
Large Rifle Primers in Winchester brass to a length to fit the CZ 527
magazines.  Two things are holding me back from the 600 meter 
range, bad weather and the absence of 30mm CZ rings for my 3-12X 
50mm sniper scope, which has 6Ft mil dots for 1000 meters and 
adjustments to 2000 meters. The first morning with decent 
weather, when it comes in, the scope gets mounted and I head 
for the range. I am contacting another member with a chronograph 
who also shoots center-fires to see what velocity the load produces. 
I would like 2,200 fps with that 174 grain bullet with pressures under 
50,000 psi. It has a prodigious ballistic coefficient well over 400, 
so it should arrive on target with plenty of energy and momentum. 
I have prepared a 5 foot by 3 foot plyboard target board with white 
paper cover and a 100 yard bull taped center. Presently, I plan to 
sight in on it at 100 yards with Hornady 125 grain bullets at 2,100 fps, 
then to move to 300 meters and adjust elevation until I am hitting 
again. Then to 400 meters. At 400 meters, I'll loose the first 174 
grain bullet with a 6:00 hold on the black, the determine if I have a 
hit anywhere. Given a hit, I'll follow with two more rounds to try to 
determine if this load has a worthwhile degree of accuracy. If it does, 
I'll proceed to 500, then to 600 meters, recording the adjustments 
and conditions of the day such as range temperature. 
All shooting will be done from the bench slow fire with all the precision 
I can bring to bear after 62 years with the rifle. One round of this 
load will get chronographed if it proves a decent performer. I'll photograph 
any worthwhile groups. I am hoping for two minutes of angle at least. 
The excellent bore fit and 1 in 9" twist and accuracy so far with the Sierra 
150 grain .311 spitzer soft point indicate I can expect at least a 
fair performance. Now, let me call my pal with the chronograph. 
I'll be reporting again when I get some meaningful results. 
Good shooting to you all.  

[William Harper]

[pre]Dec. 30, 2011
        My Fellow Marksmen:
I shot the Sierra .311 174 grain Match King over 25.6 H322 over
CCI Large Rifle Primers in Winchester brass to 600 meters today.
 A 100 yard group confirming adjustment of my NcStar 3-12X 50mm
 scope came in at 1.5" at 12:00 eight inches high.
I went to 600 meters using the scopes mil dots of 6' at
1000 meters and sheer guesswork. I held the second elevation
mil dot at 12:00 at 600 and was 9" low in a 9" group at 7:00.
The second group was with that mil dot held dead center and
was 15" low in 12". I felt the group wideners go and called them.
My confidence in the CZ 7.62X39mm Carbine's 1 in 9" twist was
fully justified. Although I wore safety glasses over mine, pressure
assessed by experience of primers and brass proved the load OK
in my rifle. It would be easy to adjust the scope now to tear up
the 100 yard black at 600 meters. A five shot group of which I shot
one at 100 yards above, makes a lot of heat in the stout little
carbine barrel. It may be a limitation I had no chronograph present
to show velocity. Recoil was mild, and the brass and primers,
which I have inspected at length, while showing signs of a good
load and discouraging the thought of .5 grain extra, are OK by my
experience as a hand-loader that began in 1954.
As for stretching this load to 1000 meters, I suspect my combination
could make it, but 600 meters are all I have available. I do have 88
Sierra .311 174 grain Match Kings left and my equipment set up to
make this load. I'll undoubtedly try it under better conditions with
a chronograph present. For now my guess is that it gets about 
2,100-2,150 fps, given the way the 174 flew today.
I am unfamiliar with any other loading data for the .311 174 HPBT
in the 7.62X39mm other than what I proved today. It may provide
a starting point to expand the use of a thrifty little cartridge in a
fine bolt action rifle. I would appreciate evaluation and suggestions.
Good shooting to you all! 

[GhostWarrior]

        First off I would like to take this moment to thank you for your time, effort and dedication to shooting and competitive shooting. Frankly I am not now and never have been a long gunner, Unless you count the old 30 carbine I could actually hit something with that, but as for real shooting I just never got the hang of holding the rifle so the barrel would stay up or even stay up long enough to get a shot off and hope it hit the target anywhere. I do now own a CZ UCS .308 with a NightForce 5.5x22x50 0 stops and MPR1Reticule scope that I bought hoping I would finally learn how to use a long gun properly. Not working out any to well truthfully.
 
         The last time I ever did any reloading was actually making some very custom .38, .357 and 9mm rounds and that was over 20 years ago. We got 3 projectiles into a single .38 and or .357 cartridge and 2 projectiles into a 9mm cartridge. Basically what we did was stuff three rounds into one cartridge, and when it was discharged all 3 projectiles not only left the barrel but all three did as intended and engaged the rifling in the barrel, which meant that since they all had spin an were stable they only moved apart not more than 4 inches at 25 yards and 2 to 2.5 inches at 10 yards. To further belabor the obvious those rounds ALL hit with approx the same force all with in inches of each other and they acted exactly as if each was fired separately but hit the target at the same time. Pretty much turning a wheel gun from a 6 shooter into a 18 round, and a 9mm Semi-Auto into double it's capacity, which in my CZ meant 16 rounds into 32. I'm not saying this correctly I know but I don't know how to say it so it makes sense. One cartridge = 3 projectiles all fired at one time, stable and accurate repeatedly and all 3 hitting at once is/was some very satisfying take down power. Even if for some reason one of the pellets turned into a flyer the other 2 still impacted the target in the place they were aimed at. So instead of having to shot one person more than once, you could shoot the person one time and hit him three times.
 
        My very long winded point is that, I have made some exotic rounds but not any sort of reloading in the ensuing twenty plus years, I am also really bad with a long gun. But I am fascinated with your postings and even though I have to read them a couple times I remember a lot of the things I learned over the years about angle, and drop and I understand what you are saying, more or less, which suprises me no end.
 
        Thank you for doing all this, and sharing the results with us. My brother does some hunting and I believe he has a couple friends that hunt and reload so I would like to send him a copy of your post. I think he would appreciate it more than I ever will. I gave him a VZ .338 Win Mag for Christmas and I have no idea if he owns a long gun that can use your ammunition, that is if you don't mind. Granted this is a public forum and I think anything posted here becomes public domain, and I presume you also posted the information so that others can in fact use your information, However I am 61 and a tad old Fashioned and I believe it's the right thing to do to ask your permission to use your information that you have spent so much time and effort on. He's a member here but he's very active in the Scouts and the K of C and doesn't get on line very much.
 
        Despite all the words I have just typed you can see that I really have nothing that I can say that would be of any use to you in your project, and I wish it were different.
 
       Although unless you are intentionally using that style type face to make it look like you are using a typewriter for what ever reason may I please ask you to use a different type face from now on? My eyes are not working properly and your type face makes reading what you have to say a little hard, but I have been doing it so far because I really am fascinated with your project and efforts, but I simply can't keep doing so. It's way to hard on my eyes.
 
         I am wondering if I may ask how is it that someone with your capabilities doesn't own a Chronograph? or is the project simply a one off to satisfy your scientific curiosty, and that you don't have one because you simply have been using your standard loads that you all ready know and didn't need a chronograph any longer until now?
 
        Frankly I personally hope you keep on as a member and continue to post. I think your knowledge would help a lot of not only beginner shooters but also experienced ones as well. And I know we have at least 2 reloaders here that are very serious about what they shoot and it would be educational to see what you all discussed. It's way to late for me to learn anything about what you and the others do, But I started this as much for the next 2 generations to learn from as much as for myself and others of my generation and yours to talk shop about CZ's. Actually I think you are my generation but I'm guessing.
 
      Thank you sir and I wish you and yours a Healthy, Happy and Prosperous New Year.

[William Harper]

Dec. 31, 2011
Dear Ghost Warrior:
My present shooting of center-fires is a renewal of past sport and work.
I had ceased shooting altogether to make Full Professor of History in
2000. Three years later I had aortal valve replacement at age 61 and my brother Weston, thirteen years my senior, died of cancer leaving me his Garrett-Purdey .54 English Officer's rifle. I shot it in his honor before my surgery-operating load 120 grains RS Pyrodex- very accurate, ca. 2" at 100 yards . Afterward, I had to find something that would not wrench my chest and its 9" scar. I shot my Savage Stevens 1972 "Crackshot" Favorite in company of Mr. Ed Auerbach Jr. and acquired the new Savage Stevens Favorites in .17 HMR, .22 LR, and .22 WMR. I took profuse notes, I acquired A 1999 CZ Lux 452 .22LR with match chamber and bore, a 2007 CZ Ultra Lux, a new Remington Model Five .22 LR, a TOZ 78-01 and a Remington Spartan Biakal .22/.410. I also shot Marlins, Coopers, and Kimbers. Since I did not miss a single class in the six years after my surgery and only wrote History, shooting rimfires was my hobby. Only occasional chronographing was needed.
One study in 2008 used the CZ Ultra Lux using Aguila Interceptor to 600 meters testing against Ed's exquisite black powder target rifles that included Hugo Bochardt's last personal Sharp's Bochardt .45-70. The CZ Ultra Lux with a receiver sight did 3.3" at 300, 7" at 400, 10" at 500, and 12" at 600 with Aguila Interceptor- 1465 fps av. MV. In 2008, a month before his death, Ed asked if I had seen any wild hogs on the range, to report it if I did, and to shoot the hogs. My best friend died aged 80 on Sept. 15, 2008.
That is why I bought the CZ 2008 527 7.62X39mm Carbine. I wanted a centerfire of modest range that was a repeater with which I could maul a large feral hog. I was not satisfied with the factory loads so I exhumed my reloading equipment and applied it. I had hand-loaded 1954-1994, seven years of it professionally for Clarence Franklin's Gun Shop in Athen's, GA.
I first shot a rifle in 1949, after pestering Alvin York who told me how and then asked my father,"You a VET?" Dad, too, was a WWI veteran. "Teach this little rascal to shoot!" Within four months it was done and Dad turned me loose on the back 800 with a Winchester Low Wall and a single .22 Short saying,"Bring me a squirrel dead or this cartridge loaded, anything else and you'll get a lickin'!" I never missed one, even when he changed the requirement to head-shots only. In 1954, my brother returned from 4 years in the U.S. Navy and taught me bullet casting and hand-loading. My college years at UGA were on the Varsity Rifle Team. I was associated with ROTC and army buddies for years until tests at Ft. MacPherson showed the bad aortic valve and connected brain wave patterns for seizures. Fixing the valve fixed the other problem. I don't know how many rifle matches rim-fire, center-fire, and muzzle-loader, and pistol matches I have been in.
I used my academic skills and hand-loading at Franklin's to go to a Ph.D.+ in 1972. I retired age 67+ in Aug. 2009, and was diagnosed with cancer 12 days later. The Chemo cure brought Shingles, which I still have subcutaneously as I push 70, and find very sapping. I did create my 150 grain Sierra spitzer soft point feral hog load, and saw only buck deer. Drat!
Feral hogs cost this state $40-$50 million in agricultural damage yearly.
All my .22 LR data went into a shooting ms. to which I shall add the 7.62X39mm section.
As of now, I have five books on Kindle and one on Amazon with the shooting book on the boiler. Dr. William Harper's Journal of Experimental Marksmanship.
Given the ride I had with the Reaper (Cancer) through this March, and the joys of Shingles and publishing, is it surprising I have no chronograph? Range pals usually have them.
Right now, I am wondering if the Sierra .311 174 grain HPBT would make a good hog load? Good shooting to you, GhostWarrior!

[GhostWarrior]

        Thank you for changing your type face, it was good of you to do so. The reason more or less for my asking was that even though the only thing I can do with a long gun is stand around holding it. I used to reload but never long gun ammo, only side arm. I have always wondered about Long guns and shooting and have read up here and there about them and and how to use them and watch the Shooting Teams,

      My problem is that for a couple reasons I was never anywhere that had someone I could learn to shot with, and even though I love to read, when it come to technical reading I pretty much never understand a thing they say. But I am very very good at learning hands on. No one to teach me hands on so I still feel like a kid when folks start talking Angles of degree, Minute of Angle, I do get the shoot high to hit where you want from distance, and and I sort of learn thing by having read them and when some was talking about it later on I put the pieces together, I still Really have no idea the Mechanics or how scopes and rifle word, but they do fascinate me.

     I digress, I asked about a chronograph because I have one I use to test various mass produced Side arm ammunition in my CZ's. Sort of a extended test to see what ammo works best out of each type/model of Pistol and post it here. However, it's been some months since I have been to the range for anything. I think I mentined I don't see so well out of my right eye, on the 17th I'll have an Operation that will implant a permanent contact in the eye after they remove the cataract. Which mean that my Chronograph is sitting in its case collection a lot of dust and will continue to do so for at least a moth or two longer, Depends on when the Doc says I get to lean over and or pick stuff up. You have been very good to share your research with us an since you live close enough to me that it won't be prohibitive to ship, I will be more than happy to loan you my Chronograph for the next two or 3 months if you would like to use it, That way you won't have to depend on anyone to borrow theirs from and simply go to the range on your schedule instead of someone else's.

        Granted it will only be for a couple or 3 months, but you are sharing with us what I'm going to guess is some more than average out of pocket expenses, and then telling us how it went. If I can help you and say thank you at the same time then I see no reason not to offer you my chronograph. Not that I still will ever understand most of what you do, I think more than a couple members here will or do, and this forum is for and about the Members, not any one person, Not about ego's and do as I say. It's a place where I wanted to learn new things and sometimes teach things to and with others. I am doing what I can to help folks, especially newcomers to our sport, find what they need in one place as much as possible. Which is why this forum is set up the way it is. People still need to do their own research but here they can at least have a reference point from which to start.

       So, though I as always, I managed to phrase my question poorly, (Honest no matter how hard I try to be nice about things, I still mange to upset most people without ever trying) that's why I asked. If you would like the use of the thing then just PM me and we can swap information, and I can get the Chrono to you. Hey if you want you can also be our first victum ummm I mean Guest test subject so we can try out our Moderated chat room and folks can ask you questions about what you have posted. And the question will have to go through the Moderator to decide if the question even makes it to you. But that part is up to you and has nothing to do with my offer. Besides you think you guys up there have problems with wild hogs and boars, pop down here to Orlando sometime. We have a standing bounty on them and no season, but I do think you need some sort of special License that's how bad it is here. I know at least one company runs back to back 24/7 (yep Day and Night Hunts using night vision and suppressors for the night hunts) $500.00 a person guaranteed hog.)

[William Harper]

Jan. 1, 2012
Dear Ghost Warrior:
You need not take the expense and trouble to send me a chronograph. A pal of minewho usually sets up his was absent yesterday. More Sierra .311 174 grain HPBT loads are going to be readied this week, now that the load is proven. I think the next trial may be the last with this load as it has already proven potentially extremely accurate.
I hope to try slow fire, timed fire, and rapid fire- five shots per group with rifle cooling between the groups. For that I shall post three 100 yard targets on the ply-board at 600 meters and use a better rest than yesterday and give them a pounding.
      I just looked at the construction of the Sierra .311 174 grain HPBT; it is a blunt
lead cylinder jacketed with a gilding metal aerodynamic point with a small hollowpoint. This looks as if it might indeed serve as a load on large feral hogs. I can easily bring it down into a 100 yard bull at 100 yards for close range hunting. I shall load ca. 25 rounds for target trials and chronographing and maybe a hunting trial.
Good luck to you with your cataract, Ghost Warrior, and good shooting to you!   .

[GhostWarrior]

         Good shooting to you also Sir. I may not understand everything you will post, but I am for sure looking forward to reading what you post. Truth be told you have managed to get me a whole lot more intrested in learning how to use my rifle and I am looking forward to trying it again. The last time was a bit dismal but this time I think I will stick with it.

[William Harper]

Jan. 6, 2012

My Fellow Marksmen:
Yesterday, I hand-loaded 20 rounds of 7.62X39mm for the CZ 527 Carbine
with the ballistic coefficient 500, Sierra .311 174 grain Match King over 25.6
grains of H322 and a CCI Large Rifle Primer in Winchester brass. The latter
sized easily.
Then I was off to the Range in balmy weather (65F) with some light wind.
Using data obtained in my last shoot of this load, I added 10 clicks elevation-
ca. 15" at 600 meters.
My course of fire was slow fire first from a clean bore, a brief wait then a timed
fire of one shot every five seconds, followed by a check down range, then rapid
fire of one shot every two seconds. The short 527 action can manage the latter.
This went pretty well. I was not wearing safety glasses over my spectacles now
that the load had proven safe. The only problem was wind speed increase from
the south to 15-20 mph. Nevertheless, Group one was ca. 7" at target level.
Timed fire group was 12" spread horizontally.
I checked down range and saw windage was sweeping me from target center.
I attempted to change this by adding 10 clicks right (south). My rapid fire seemed
a little awkward as the bolt knob kept rapping a knuckle. The result was a
horizontal spread of 15".
I was tempted to let her cool and shoot more, but the wind was strong and the
property would go to deer hunting in 45 minutes. So I retrieved my target with 3
100 yard black aiming points on its long white paper.
I put my gear in order, cleaned my rifle, stowed all, having put up the
"Don't Shoot! People Down Range!" sign in time to wish the deer hunter good
luck as he mounted his ATV. It was a terrific exercise for my legs to which I later
added a chin-up exercise and 25 pushups plus putting out the trash! Needless
to say, I was too tired to write anything but my range report.
I retained five rounds to chronograph when the opportunity comes. However, I
have no doubts that the load fired above could give a machine gun nest or an
RPG man real problems to 800 meters. The steep trajectory coupled with precision
range-finding could actually prove advantageous, as with the .45-70 Gatling guns
pounding their hail of fire down into the Spanish trenches at San Juan Hill. My
scope has much more elevation, including two more 6 foot mil dots at 1000 meters
As for its use in match shooting, the CZ 527 7.62X39mm has slow fire accuracy of
a high order, but I have been away from the match ranges for a long time to be
speculating how the CZ 527 would do with the kind of performance I obtained
above with the 7.62X39mm.
It might be that my accurate .311 150 grain hand-load would do better.
One sure verdict is that the load appears safe in my CZ 527 Carbine and that fired
brass and primers are wholly intact.
I am giving some thought as to what effect the Sierra .311 174 grain HPBT would
have on a large feral hog at, say 50 yards? It has, after all, a small hollow-point
and the jacket's aerodynamic structure would probably collapse on striking a big
one.
I had also intended to test the Sierra .311 180 grain spitzer soft point in the
7.62X39mm for accuracy and with a thought that it might make a good woods
range hunting load, but that would cost me $43.00 for bullets alone to say nothing
of a pound of Vv N130 powder, slower than H322 to use with it. My noisy hobby
does cost and the trickle of money from my Kindle publications takes a long time to
cover it.
I hope some experienced comrades on this forum start testing their CZ 527s for
accuracy and for hunting and service potential.     

[GhostWarrior]

        Sounds like a pretty windy day, still though not bad considering the wind and weight of the rounds, and it wasn't a total lose, even a little knowledge is worth more than none at all. And yes totally understand how this are these days. All things considered a good day, thanks for posting.