CC tomorrow

[Roadking Rider]

I agree, Roadking.

I've only been carrying a short time, and I love my CZ75B, but like you said, "I like my CC gun to be something I do not have to dress around."

The PM9 looks too small to hold comfortably, which is why I listed a CW9 as a CC option, but I'll be shopping next weekend and hopefully will get to try it.

CW 9 is a nice size pistol for CC. I find that I can get enough fingers on the grip of a PM9 to be able to shoot it accurately and comfortably. I do not think I'd be truthfully able to say that though with a larger caliber round in the same sized pistol. I think the follow up shots if needed would be trouble. That just my opinion though.
I believe that you have to be comfortable with the size of pistol you carry on your hip and what you shoot and handle well. It's sort of a balancing act, of do I go with a bigger frame pistol or do I stay with a smaller framed one. I personally carry everything from a 1911,CZ75B, Glock 26, Kahr PM, down to a KT P3at. Which one I carry depends on where I'm going and how long I plan on being there.  I prefer to carry the 1911 or the CZ but on most days the PM9 seems to end up on my hip or in a jacket or vest pocket. For weddings,funerals and things of that nature the P3at works best. It's not the best choice in fire power but I do not in anyway want anyone to see that I'm carrying either. IMO there really is no right or wrong in any of this., it just depends on what works best for the individuale who is carrying the gun. Where you live and the type of people you come in contact with on a daily basis has a lot to do with it also, as a pistol with a larger round count like the 75B just might be your best option and you'd have to put personal comfort on the shelf for another day and time. It's nice to have options though.

[Logan]

James, Roadking, and JDR,


I'm also reasonably thin. I'm also fairly active. I'm a cyclist and keep up with the local college racers, my waist is around 31 inches, 5'11. I also ride my bike to work every day, about 8 miles round trip.


During the winter I have no problems concealing. A coat or jacket over the outside and I'm good to go. During the summer (we had 60 days over 100 this summer) I usually wear an undershirt with a dress shirt on the outside. This likewise is easy enough to conceal as I just tuck in the undershirt, put on the holster, and then tuck the dress shirt (thin cotton) over the outside. The "billow" around the waist is both fashionable and conceals easily. I can do pictures too if needed but sounds like James has it covered. The holster conforms very well to your body, especially after about a month of wearing and is extremely comfortable (with a stiff belt, I got mine from 5.11 tactical, believe me, a stiff belt is worth it).


As far as lifestyle, I tend to be active as well: frisbee, airsoft, biking, etc. I don't wear anything concealed under spandex but can with the others. Whenever I want something just light and unobtrusive I usually use the Kahr PM9 (actually CM9, but same thing with minor variations and cheaper). I use this as a pocket gun and have tried out several holsters for it that I can recommend.


So personally, I don't dress around my CZ but I do have the "undershirt, dress shirt" thing. Anyway, please post your findings James, and I'd be happy to talk more about the Kahr as well.

[jdr3366]

OK Logan. First of all, stop bragging

"my waist is around 31 inches, 5'11. " I don't ever remember my waist at anything less than 36".

Also, thanks for the CM9 testimonial. Asheville gun show is today, and I'll be on the look out.

Really would rather a RAMI, but I think it's going to be just a bit to chunky. Maybe I'll be lucky and find one to hold at the gun show.

[GhostWarrior]

           I had a 31 inch waist once, but she told me to take my hands off or she would break them.............................

[Logan]

I do have a RAMI and it is a bit chunky. More than I would have thought. I won't be pocket carrying it, that's for sure!

[jdr3366]

I've never actually seen a RAMI up close, but at 1.3 inches I'm not surprised to hear you say it's too chunky to carry in your pocket.

I believe the Kahr CM9 is a little less than an inch wide (0.9 inches), and about an inch shorter too.

How much might adding a Pierce extension (I think that's what it's called) to the magazine reduce the recoil? Any thoughts or experience? A Pierce extension just adds a short length to the front of the magazine, as I understand it. Maybe we are getting to off topic and I should ask someone at the Kahr group.

And, GW, how long ago did you say it was that you "had" a 31 inch waist??

[Logan]

I have both a regular magazine and one with an extension (it holds an extra round instead just having a front piece). However, I find that it's easier to carry and just as easy to shoot with the regular magazine. I think that the dislike of a pinky hanging off is more mental than from reduced practicality.


Now I did add Talon Grips to it (basically like skateboard tape) and that makes a huge difference. It goes from something that I was thinking I might have a hard time hanging on to, to something my wife carries regularly and can shoot rapid fire. We went to the range just this last week and did some drills and she was doing very well with it (she's 5'3'', so not large by any means). The grips make far more difference than a pinky extension would, in my opinion.


I'm considering a PM45 for pocket carry myself, should I have to do that sometimes.

[Roadking Rider]

I have the replacement magazine base plate on my PM9 mags. It adds about a 3/8" to the grip lengh. I can get two full fingers on the grip. I have no problems trying to control the recoil for a follow up shot, because the Kahr fits low in the hand, and I'd be willing to bet my hands are a lot older and beat up more than yours. The DAO trigger on the Kahrs are long for safety reasons but they are butter smooth. Hope you find what tyour looking for but I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice by not at least checking out the Kahr PM/CM line of pistols.

[james]

Ok, provided any of the footage I took actually shows what I was trying to show I should have finished a quick demo.  I need to edit the bits together into somewhat of a linear fashion and then I'll probably just post a new thread in this forum (with a link to the new thread as a reply here)

I am not a video blogger and I didn't feel like making a huge production out of things so I apologize for filming in the bathroom (only mirror I have that would work) and for talking quietly (people are trying to sleep).  If you have any other questions that I didn't cover or covered poorly I would be glad to try and answer them.  Uhh... one more thing - if the video is so bad it doesn't help show you the concealability, printing, etc... Please let me know so I can re-do it with some help (I'll make my sister be the camera woman). 

[GhostWarrior]

          Frankly I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water gentlemen. First off, the RAMI is for some folks a bit harder to conceal. However, I can point out the 75B Combat, the P-01 (only weapon that NATO uses that they are willing to let civilians buy, which is why P-01's come with the NATO Mil Spec number on the pistol) Ya I know NATO big whoop. well considering I worked with both them and the UN troops. The NATO troops will shoot you if you screw with them. Unlike the UN, NATO has top line units from every friendly nation in the Western Block. Which means they are not going to mess around picking weapons when the people testing them are from different countries and everyone one of them have to agree about a weapon before it's accepted. Anyway I digress. Also there is the P-07 Duty, and there are three versions out this year one of them has a threaded barrel standard.
 
       I have had both the combat and the P-01 in my front pocket more than once in public and not one person even blinked in my direction. And one of those times I was responding as a First Responder at a traffic accident, and not one officer even noticed. And they were literally right next to me kneeling next to the victim's.
 
     And if you seriously want a pistol that small as the Kahr then the CZ 83 .380 is every bit as good and actually better than the Kahr for the simple reason a 9mm coming out of a pistol as small as the Kahr will make getting back on target much harder because the recoil is going to be greater due to the shorter barrel and the shorter grip not allowing your entire hand and all your finger to actually be on the grip. Where as the .380 is balanced well and very easy to keep centered after firing. The only way you will control the Kahr is to load subsonic 9mm and because of the size of the grip if you are using it with wet hands, I won't even give you odds on retaining it in a gun fight after the first or possibly second shot. In a gun fight close in or at distance it is a prove fact that the people involved will have approx a 20 point drop in their IQ and conscience ability to control their natural fight or flight tendencies. Been there done that. And so has every LEO that has worked the street and soldiers in their first combat situation. I have a Rami and the only way I will carry it is with the magazines that have the pinkie extension so that my hand and ALL my fingers will be on the grip helping to control the recoil and get back to POA. Someone with small hands no doubt be able to control the weapon with practice.
 
         And for the record, my question is what's more important? living your lifestyle as is and hope you never get into a real pissing match or modifying your lifestyle a little and have to worry less about being able to respond in kind to any threat? For the record, more assets and or principles have been killed because they refused to modify their "Lifestyle" and reduce their exposure than the ones that listened to the people like me that they hired and or were assigned to help protect them. And when those people died 9 times out of 10 times it was from being severely out numbered or the bad guys really wanted the principle/asset dead and didn't care what it cost to do it. In those cases you could have had them in an Abrams M1A1 main battle tank and it would have not kept them alive.
 
        No offence intended to either one of you, I am not trying to embarass you, not make fun of you are even tell you that you are wrong in what you think is best and why. I simply tried to point out a couple things you may have not thought of and open up a couple more options. You both know how good CZ's are, but if I read everything correctly neither of you owned more than one or 2 CZ's which is great. and I am in no way trying to show you up, I'm simply pointing out how I base my argumanet on. I own 18 different models and 53 pistols total at this point. I have been carrying CZ's for more than 40 years. I have also worn every single model of CZ I have,  a number of times in different settings. Other than the honking big CZ97B and possibly the SP-01's, I had no trouble carring concealed. An I live in Central Florida, I grew up in New Orleans and the Bayous surrounding it. I spent more time in jungles and swamps in foreign countries than I ever want to remember. And 1 desert, sorry 2 (one was for EaE course), I wear shorts and t-shirts and a vest (Eddie Bauer, Orvis, others) pretty much everywhere, unless I am going out to dinner and or a formal gathering. I have never once been stopped and asked if I was carrying. And as I said I pretty much carried all my pistols at one time or another. You may also consider looking into a CZ 82. 9mm x 18 (sort of a cross between a 9mm and a .380). Small enough to hind in a pocket and big enough to control and also stop most any attacker.
 
         

[jdr3366]

GW, sounds like you've given this a lot of thought.

Here's where I am. I started with a .380 Bursa Thunder. Yes, I know there's no comparison, but I want to stay with 9mm.

Also, I don't think the 75 Compact is that different from the 75 B that I have now.

Here's a comparison for the Compact vs the 75B  vs the RAMI vs the Kahr CW9 (not the smaller CM9)

Barrel length         3.9 vs 4 vs 3 vs 3.6
Overall length       7.3 vs 8.1 vs 6.6 vs 5.9
Height                    5 vs 5.4 vs 4.7 vs 4.5
Width                    1.4 vs 1.4 vs 1.3 vs 0.9
Weight                  33 vs 34 vs 25.5 vs 17

Why do you say that some people find it more difficult to conceal the RAMI???  The dimensions suggest it should be easier to conceal vs the 75B or Compact.

Not withstanding your experience, I've been told the height is the main dimension for CC. I guess this is because the handle prints more than the barrel or the width. Do you agree?

It just seems if I'm going to spend $400+ or so dollars to have almost the same dimensions, I'll stay with the 75B.

Also, it feels good but I'm not in love with the Kahr. I agree that I have concerns about my ability to hold on to it for accuracy and between shoots. But CZ has nothing in 9 mm to compete with those dimensions.

Finally, I would like a pistol that sets up like my 75B: safety, DA/SA, more than 6 rounds. The Kahr doesn't do that.

I should have spent more time with the CZs at the gun show. I think the vendor is not too far away. Maybe I'll drive by an give his collection a closer look.

[Logan]

I found the RAMI a chunk mainly because the width of the 75B is measured at the decocker, safety, etc., and is much narrower at the barrel. The RAMI is just thick all the way through---thicker across the slide than the 75B, at least it really seems that way, though I've not taken a pair of calipers to it. I'm sure you can pocket just about anything, but of those you list, the Kahr is the only one I would really want to try. It's thinner and shorter in height. Additionally, I found the RAMI difficult to get out of my pocket opening quickly. I never considered the 75B or Compact for pocket carry. That's pretty heavy for a pocket.


I'd like to stay with 9mm too but if there are thinner, smaller CZs I'd be happy to hear more about them.

[GhostWarrior]

        Both points are well made, but here is what or the way my thinking goes. The Rami may well be small light and with the mag pinkie extension easy to handle, But if you are going to CC the you are need to think either IWB or just tucked inside your waste band no holster, (there are pros and cons to that but that's another subjet, and frankly not one I want to tackle since it will never be resolved) or you will have it in some pocket some where. Both the Kahr and the RAMI or for all intents and purposes Square, The certainly have rather sharp and distinctive edges and profiles. Because of that as Logan pointed out it makes them hard to get out if you need to. Too many ways for either to snag. And if you are going for you weapon and you have to struggle or at least make more than a subtle effort to get it out, I'm pretty sure the bad guy is going to notice and most likely take exception, which would most likely not go well for you. But lets skip over that part and consider this. As I said they both have sharp edges, trust me when I say this but they get  really old really fast when you have to deal with them all day, whether they are in an IWB holster or tucked into your belt. OWB is not nearly as uncomfortable but it does make CC a bit more complicated.
 
         You skipped over the     P-01                    the P-07 Duty                        and the CZ 82
                                  Caliber       9                                9                                               9 x 18 Makarov
                                Capacity     16                               16                                              12
                     Weight Loaded      2.24 Lbs                     2.01 Lbs                                   1.16 Lbs
                                    Barrel      3 1/2                           3 3/4                                         3 3/4
                       Overall Length     7                                 7 1/4                                        6 3/4
                                    Height     5 1/2                           5                                              5
                                     Width     1 1/8                           1 1/4                                        1 1/4
                                Estethics     Rnd Slide                    Tampered slide                       all edges rounded
                                                   Sq dust cvr                  Sq dust cvr
                                                   Pict rail                         Pict rail
 
          All in all all 7 pistols are close to each other in all respects except possibly in weight, But the weight you used I'm presuming was loaded. If not then the three I just listed would tilt the choices their way.
 
          Frankly I am not familiar with the Kahr to make any real judgements other than if you use sonic loads and the grip doesn't have some for of little finger support, then it going to be hard to reacquire your target, Subsonic rnds not so much. You can control but give up distance = damage. The RAMI 2025 has a short grip also but as a rule a CZ and some other East European Countries over build their pistols so they can take sonic and some cases super sonic rnds better than most. I'm guessing both the Kahr and I know the RAMI have Little finger support. but there is a substantial difference in weight I think. And that difference will also effect you control. It really comes down to for every action there is a reaction, and the lighter something is it will impart a much higher recoil and muzzle lift than a similar size pistol with slightly more mass/weight.
 
     I will also say that the CZ 82 albeit that it's a WWII/Cold War design and there fore old and a lot cheaper than any of the pistol all of us have mentioned. It is still a very accurate and powerfull weapon and should never be over looked as a CC or even HD pistol. The 9mm x 18 round is plentifully, bigger by half than the .380, smaller by a fourth than a 9mm x 19 (9mm Para) but it is also fast, accurate and capable of doing a great deal of damage. The pistol itself will fit in most pockets (Not back pockets unless you can find a pocket/wallet holster for it. Then it just looks like a fat wallet.) without being obvious to anyone. I have one than one, My daughter loves hers. And trust me she is 5 foot not a lot and about a buck twenty soaking wet, and she can handle and hit what ever she is aiming at with a CZ 75. So the Makarov  just makes her happy as a clam because now she can carry it without having to change her style of dress very much, if at all. The biggest thing in the way of a purse she would carry isn't much bigger than my hand with all my fingers spread, so the 75 was never a CC consideration for her.
 
         The other thing you should keep in mind is that the Makarov  and the CZ 82 version of it, are both classes as Relics and  Curios. Which means the ammo for them is also grand fathered in and that ammo (certainly the Surplus stuff) is FMJ and the M isn't a tin/copper mix.  If you are into reloading at all then also keep in mind that the 82 is one of those Overbuilt pistols I mentioned earlier and it can take a slightly hotter load than you will find in any store. Certainly hot enough to bring it up to 9mm Para specs. 

[jdr3366]

The weights I listed are for unloaded pistols. Also, the Kahr is rounded, according to their promotional material.

There is one other reason I resist buying the CZ 83-82 (what's the difference?) that I haven't mention until now. It looks like the Bersa Thunder (or vice versa). And the wife will ask why I sold the $250 Bersa if I was going to turn around and buy a $375 CZ 82??

Actually, that's not such a big problem... more a consideration.

I must admit, I don't view firearms simply as "tools." Watches (Rado). Cars (Porsche). Computers (MacBook). They all have to reach me at tactile and style levels as well as exceptional function.That's the main reason I bought the OD CZ 75B at a premium from a friend.

Regarding the CZ 82, if I can find one that looks like this baby, then I might just take the plunge.

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[GhostWarrior]

              OK well that changes things a tad, All the ones I listed are weights with full magazines. Really doesn't throw things that far off, but it does put most, if not all, of the pistols you posted at the same weight or heaver than the ones I put up.

              The difference between the 82 and the 83 is that the .82 is a Makerov 9mm x 18 (looks like a cross between a .380 and a 9mm. and the 83 is a .380 also known as a Browning short. The Mak round moves faster and has more weight behind it the a .380. Also has better accuracy at longer ranges than a .380 can handle.

             And I totally get where you are coming from about aesthetics and and value. We have different tastes and or reasons for what we like, but we are basically coming from the same place. Nothing wrong with that attitude at all.

            As for the pistol you posted, well that's easy as heck to deal with. There are at least 3 people that specialize in grips for a CZ82. Any one of them makes a set of grips as good as or actually better looking than that one. CZ 82's can be found on a regular basis on GunBroker.com, Auction Arms.com, GunsAmerica.com ArmsList.com and others. The grips you check out the makers of grips from the list that posted in the Grips topic board. http://www.marschalgrips.com/ is only one of them. take the old grips off and put the new ones on and you have what you asked for. Heck I have 5? Lost count sorry, anyway, 3 of them have been refinished (parkerized) and one Duracoated and with wood grips from one of the other Makers listed, they make that one look like a poor relation. Actually some where on here is/are pictures of most of my pistols that are not safe queens and get used on a regular basis. Check it out and you'll see what I'm talking about. You should see my CZ 52 7.62 x 25 Tokerav just  sick. And it's easy to conceal but it is about the size of a 75 only thinner. you need to buy some American made ammo for it if you ever get one and decide to carry it. because if you shoot anyone using surplus ammo you had best be at a distance because that round will punch through and through. Not a pistol you want to shoot in a crowd. GM posted about a couple Hollow point rounds made here in the US that won't punch through because they are hollow points and I think lighter loads than a FMJ Tok uses.