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Firearms and Gear => CZ Handguns => Topic started by: jdr3366 on December 04, 2011, 07:50:03 PM

Title: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 04, 2011, 07:50:03 PM
Hi,

I've been thinking about it for over a year, target shooting at least once a week. I'm comfortable with the safety, pistol function, holster, and my knowledge of the law.

Any recommendations for my first day of concealed carry with my 75B 9mm tomorrow?
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 04, 2011, 08:07:14 PM
ummmmmmm might we get a better idea of what you are talking about? Yes this looks like a weird question, but your post is vague in the extreme? No offence intended but that would raise eyebrows no matter where you posted it.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 04, 2011, 08:51:34 PM
What I'm saying is that I've thought about the pros and cons of concealed carry for me for over a year. It's something I want to do for personal protection. I read about others who have done it and feel that the weapon is too exposed, not concealed properly, probably lot of other feelings, etc.

In the experience of others, what are the thoughts that go through you mind as you leave the house the first day of concealed carry?

Not sure why that sounds extreme.

Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 04, 2011, 08:56:26 PM
The other concern I have is that the 75B is a large weapon. I read about getting a smaller pistol for CC, but I think I should try carrying it for a while and see for myself if it's too large for me to carry.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Rodolfo Fierro on December 05, 2011, 04:53:53 AM
The first day that you carry concealed is going to make you feel that everyone is looking at your gun.  Try to wear it around the house first and have others see if the gun is noticeable before going anywhere else.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 05, 2011, 07:28:24 AM
 
 
 Rodolfo Fierro got it right in one basically, I have been caring concealed since I was 20 and to this day I still think people know I'm strapped. Especially the LEO's.

        On the other hand I have been carrying concealed since I was 20 and the first weapon I had was a Ruger Security Six, Then I found CZ's and I carried a CZ75 for the next 25 to 30 years as my duty weapon and my CCW. Never once had a problem with anyone asking me, or knowing if I was armed. The point of concealment is just that concealed. Keep in mind that the primary charge in any arrest is not for carrying concealed. It's for something else and the CC is second when they pat you down.

       I don't know if you have kids so this bit may be hard to pull off, but you need to forget you even have a weapon on your person, And about the only way to do that is to simply wear it every min you can and that means around the house. The first time you go out carrying concealed you are going to have this sort of instinctive want to keep checking that your weapon is where you put it, still secure, and still concealed. This is where the word Paranoid gets full measure. You have to make a conscience effort not to touch the place your weapon is hiding, Makes you look nervous and people start wondering, especially the LEO's, So the quicker you get used to carrying the weight of the holster and pistol, not to mention the weird way it makes your pants feel, the less likely you are to give away the fact you are armed. As long as you can look like you know who you are, where you are and know where you are going, along with the belief/knowledge that you have the official right to have the weapon on you, then no one is going to give you a second thought or look. About the only thing that you will have to do is get used to wearing any extra something all the time. If you wear a shirt not tucked in the make sure you have on a t-shirt of some kind, Trust me otherwise the hammer and beaver tail will eat you. Other wise learn how to wear something loose like a vest or jacket, sport coat and so on. The last thing I can say is to not to forget you are carrying a weapon so completely that you take off what ever you are wearing to conceal your weapon while in public, I don't care how hot it gets.

           BTW Short answer is yes you can carry a CZ75B concealed quite well and never have to worry about it.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 05, 2011, 06:37:18 PM
OK. Here are my thoughts after I carried CC for the first time today. No problem sitting in the car or walking around at Home Depot. It was comfortable, although I did keep pulling down my sweatshirt because I could feel that the barrel was inching below the bottom by about an inch, I estimate.

Reaching for my wallet at the McDonald's drive-up was not a problem. Seat belt, no problem.

However, at the Home Depot john there was a problem. The pistol bent over, but didn't fall out of the holster. Can you imagine the mess that would have been? Pulling up and rebelting my pants was a pain.

At home, no problem working at the computer. It was comfortable with the holster at about the 3:30 to 4 position. But getting up and down and bending made the sweatshirt ride up. I was constantly pulling it down.

Overall, I was pleased with the concealment, and felt comfortable (not conspicuous), but at home I felt funny. Thinking, "Is this really necessary?" So, at 5 PM I removed the pistol and holster and put it  back in the nightstand. I'll do it again tomorrow, although it might be a problem because I have a doctor's appointment and will have to remove the holster before entering the clinic. Unbuckling, storing it in the glove compartment, rebuckling, and then reattaching to the belt after the doctor visit seem like a lot of effort.

Maybe the holster should sit higher on my waist or maybe a RAMI would be better? Or maybe over time I'll adjust and carry the 75B without much thought to it.

Overall, a good day.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: bigborephil on December 05, 2011, 08:28:45 PM
What kind of holster are you using and what kind of belt?
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Rodolfo Fierro on December 06, 2011, 05:05:53 AM
Duluth Trading Co has vest, shirts, etc that are supposed to cure "Plumber's Butt".  They are a little longer than normal.  I wear one of their vest most of the time, otherwise I leave my shirt out.
http://www.duluthtrading.com/ (http://www.duluthtrading.com/)
 
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 08:42:46 AM
I carry a CZ75B daily and even when I'm not carrying the gun itself (inside certain buildings), I always retain the holster. I wear it constantly around the house too.

I too am curious as to what kind of holster you are using. I have a Crossbreed clone made by Harwell Holsters which is really quite nice. With a good, thick belt and that thing, it sticks to my side and I honestly forget I have it on sometimes and have to walk back to the car. There would never be any problem with it tipping forward and almost falling out (!).

But glad your first day went well.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 06, 2011, 04:48:57 PM
I should have been clearer. The holster with the pistol firmly attached rolled forward as I was sitting, belt unbuckled, in the stall of the john. I don't think it was a belt problem.

I don't remember the name of the holster maker. I came across his booth at the Asheville Gun Show. It felt good when I tried it so I made a spur of the moment purchase. Maybe I can post a pic later.

I started my second day CC. It bothered me in the car. Probably the holster was not in the same position as day 1. I think I pushed it back too far and it created pressure above my waist next to my love handles as I sat in the bucket seat.

With the doctor visits today, I removed it after breakfast.

I'm a bit disappointed. My CZ 75B feels great shooting. I'm reasonably accurate, and it's never a problem. I'm so comfortable with it. I was hoping it would not be too big to CC and I'd not have to buy something smaller. 

Honestly, buying new clothes is not what I want to do right now. On top of everything else I have to worry about Plumber's butt. Say it isn't so.

This is a process I guess. I'll do it again tomorrow. Maybe with a slightly larger sweatshirt.

Aside from the comfort issue, I'm very OK with CC. Do most people find comfort to be the main challenge?
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 05:17:15 PM
I would say that most people would find concealment the biggest challenge, or at least worry about that more than comfort but sure, comfort would be a big issue.


I'd be interested in seeing a photo. The right holster can make a huge difference and so can the right belt. Many people go through multiple holsters before they find one that seems to fit them right. It's a very personal thing and what might be good for one person would not be good for another.


I can't say enough good things about my Harwell holster (reasonably priced too) http://harwellholsters.com/ (http://harwellholsters.com/)
At the same time, I realize that it might not work for everyone.


Hickok45 (one of my favourite Youtube channels) just posted a video on IWB holsters which you may or may not find helpful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gjUknHqvGY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gjUknHqvGY)


But I wouldn't give up on carrying your CZ just yet. I really enjoy carrying mine and do so with more comfort than anything I've ever carried before. And I don't think you'd have to change your dress style either, unless you wear really tight clothes. I can tuck in my dress shirt (with a little "billow" for business casual, wear a coat (heavy or light, depending on the weather), or just wear a shirt untucked.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: bigborephil on December 06, 2011, 05:39:25 PM
I used to carry a Para 14-45 with a 2 round extention making it a double stack 1911  with a total of 17 rounds.  I carried it in a CTAC and never had a problem.  The MTAC is the same thought, but much more comfortable.  The real thing is use a good holster and think about your clothes.  You cannot carry full size pistol and wear sknny jeans and a fitted turtle neck.  Lots of us will help you in anyway you want.  Pictures would help to troubleshoot your problems and tell you if we can see the gun.  You may also want to consider an alternative carry if you are unable to hide the gun to your satifaction.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 06:21:26 PM
The first day that you carry concealed is going to make you feel that everyone is looking at your gun.  Try to wear it around the house first and have others see if the gun is noticeable before going anywhere else.
This is great advice. And even when you are comfortable around the house, you will still feel like everyone has "made" you. Just remember that they haven't and you are fine. The strangest thing will be the sense that you have taken it upon yourself to protect yourself, your family, and even total strangers. After a while, you may wonder why not everyone else has made that decision. You are doing the right thing, and you have chosen a perfect platform for your personal defense.

I wear jeans that are the same size as I wore before, but before, I wore pants that wre a size too big. I also wear 3x (have for years), but now I take a 3xlong if I can find it. In any event, it won't take long before you are comfortable and you will feel naked without that familiar poke in your love handles (if you have them. I do...  :grin: ).

Good man!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 06, 2011, 06:37:56 PM
Hickok says it's a process, and I guess there's no way around it. Think I'll look into the Supertuck. The size of the CZ 75B needs a large holster surface area, I think.

CTAC looks like it might need more leather to make it comfortable.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 06:49:29 PM
It is a process... A large holster area would be nice, but the little Tagua IWB I use works well for my 75B and 1911 (The CZ is better, BTW) WITH a couple of caveats...
http://www.taguagunleather.com/new/inside-the-waist-holsters-p27 (http://www.taguagunleather.com/new/inside-the-waist-holsters-p27)
First of all, the construction of the leather is great. They use good materials for it, it is small and comfy, and after 4 months of EVERYDAY use, it has held its shape well. And that was in 100-degree Utah heat with me sweating the whole time. The caveat? The little clip sucks a bit, so just know that it needs to be replaced every now and then. The thing I like about it is that it quickly converts to an OWB if teh clothing I'm wearing will cover the firearm or if I'm at home or just feel like open carrying.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: bigborephil on December 06, 2011, 07:17:03 PM
The CTAC does need leather, that is what the MTAC is.  I like it better than the crossbreed beacuse it has a leather backing that protects you from the metal parts and strengthens it up some.  I also like that you can change guns in it for $35 instead of having to buy a whole new holster if you change what you carry.  And, comp-tac.com is good people.
 
Phil
 
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 07:22:14 PM
So, BigBorePhil, what do you have to do in order to get a CTAC/MTAC for a CZ 75B or an SP-01? I really like it, but I didn't see our pistols listed...

Never mind. I'm just an idiot...  :grin:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 07:41:05 PM
If you're looking into a SuperTuck anyway, consider giving the Harwell Holster a chance. It's cheaper and I've owned both and think the Harwell is more comfortable. Extremely fast turn-around too. I got mine the next day (but I'm local).
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 07:43:46 PM
Sorry... I've been looking at so many holsters the last few days... Do they make holsters for the 75B and the SP-01?
EDIT: They do the 75 but not the SP-01. I sent them an email to see if they can do the SP-01, so I will post as soon as I hear back from them
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 07:49:20 PM
If you're asking about the Harwell Holsters...
The CZ75B fits nicely in the "Compact" holster. If you call I'm sure he'd be happy to say for sure.
He may do a SP-01 holster but I don't know. I know he'll make custom ones to any gun if he has access to it.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 07:53:04 PM
haha! Yeah. I was asking about the Harwell. So they have an offering for the 75, so no problem there. I'm scrambling around like an idiot because I'm really hoping to order a holster next week. I will see what they say when they get back to me...
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 08:07:56 PM
I wish you luck in your hunt!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 08:09:54 PM
Thank you! I will post my findings
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 08:19:02 PM
I just remembered something I wanted to add. I went with the "comfort cut" myself instead of the "combat cut". I can draw well with it and it certainly is comfortable. I can't speak for the combat cut.


Also, I see they are offering free shipping in December :)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 06, 2011, 08:27:33 PM
Nice! Well, you don't always think about the comfort when you start CC-ing. And hopefully the instructors told you that "You don't carry for it to be comfortable; you carry because it's comforting" (or something like it  :tongue: ). HOWEVER, after 10 hours with a full sized steel framed combat pistol, you need all of the "comforting" you can get! haha
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 06, 2011, 08:31:45 PM
Ha, yes. Certainly nothing wrong with it feeling good too.


I don't wear clothes to feel comfortable, primarily, but I certainly choose the ones that are :)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 07, 2011, 11:42:09 AM
             I added both those Holster makers you folks have been talking about to the Holster Mfg sticky.
             I really never once had a problem carrying my CZ 75 concealed not once in 30 plus years? or is that 40 plus? Either way, I think the biggest thing you have is that you are simply not accustomed to the idea of carrying concealed add to the fact that you are (I think) new to weapons and carrying them on any basis other than at the range. Maybe it's easier for some of us since we are ex-LEO's or still on the job, or Military or what ever and so when we go concealed it's not a big deal for us, We have had years to get used to not only carrying a weapon but also being out in public with it, either openly carried or concealed. Trust me I know exactly where you are coming from when you talk about your weapon/holster and using the toilet. Frankly it isn't much easier with a shoulder holster, just different set of issues and room to move in. The best advice I ever got was when you go to use the toilet, before you drop trou, take your pistol out, drop trou, sit down and put the pistol in the crotch of your pants, That way you can never forget to put it back into the holster like you might if you set it on the toilet paper dispenser, or the back of the toilet if there is a back. Depending on what you are wearing in regards to pants and socks and shoes you can also simply instead of putting the pistol it the crotch of your pants once you are sitting put it in your sock or down your shoe or boot. Then when you get up you simply pull up your pants, fasten them, and then reach down and safely put your pistol back in it's nest. Either way you try it you will never forget your weapon no matter what happens or how much of a hurry you are in.

           Getting used to CCW is not something you can do over night or even in a week, Hell, I CCW every second I leave the house, and I have all the credentials I need, but every now and then I feel like when a LEO looks at me he knows I'm armed, or guilty of something. I'm not but it's a hard feeling to shake. I think about the only place you really feel comfortable carrying is when you are with a group of friends that either also carry or know you carry and don't care. Maybe that's just me.

          No offence Seriously I mean this NO offence intended but you are over thinking this, it's very natural to do that, and it's harder to relax about it, but just stop thinking about everything that could go wrong and how weird it feels, then at some point you will get to a point when you actually stop and think. "Hey I haven't thought about my weapon in a while" and then you will know from then on you will be ok and not be paranoid anymore about having a weapon on you. Well unless you walk into a Bar or a federal building and the Post Office counts as a Federal bldg. I'm pretty sure no state allows you to be in a bar drinking anything stronger than water with a lemon twist, (oh ya and I won't give you odds on how many of us "CCW Veterans" have forgotten that rule.  :tongue: ) As for the federal bldg, you may either simply turn around go back to your car or if they have them put your weapon into a locker that you get to keep the key, then go through the rest of the entry procedure.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 07, 2011, 08:54:24 PM
Third day.

Today was good. Holster felt good. Maybe yesterday I missed a belt loop.

Anyway, it felt right today in the car and sitting at the computer for hours. Comfortable walking around the Apple Computer store and talking with the sales people. Didn't even think about it at the tropical fish store when speaking with the owner to arrange delivery of baby angelfish tomorrow.

I removed the holster at the allergist. They have a no gun sign on the door and it wasn't that much of an effort to take it off and then put it back on after leaving the office. Just one more thing to experience.

I couldn't fit the 75B in the glove compartment. No room with all the manuals I have stuffed in there. In retrospect I'm not sure why I placed the pistol under the front seat rather than remove the manuals and lock the pistol in the glove compartment. I guess that wasn't the best idea. I'll remember next time.

I appreciate all the excellent comments and insights. I'll be looking closer at IWB holsters.

GhostWarrior, thanks for the advice about the john. And I agree that it's important not to over think this stuff. But, I'm originally from NJ, lived almost all my life in that area, and never appreciated our second amendment or my option to exercise it until about 3 years ago.

Now, after 2 years with CCW I've come full circle.

Here's my rig. http://www.thecamreport.com/images//IMG_0159.jpg (http://www.thecamreport.com/images//IMG_0159.jpg)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 08, 2011, 07:23:48 AM
Nice grips :)

My first thought was that it looks like your belt is sagging. You wouldn't believe how much difference a really stiff belt makes (I mean so stiff, it stands up by itself sort of stiff).

Also, nice holster! Certainly concealable. An IWB (if you choose to look into those) could only be even more so. I'm glad the third day went much better.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 08, 2011, 06:16:06 PM
Day 4

Very good day.

Yes, I noticed the sag. I will get a belt for Christmas. Tightening one more notch also helped improved comfort.
Bought an insulated shirt/jacket at Sam's. It hangs lower, covers better.

So, it took me about 4 days to feel comfortable. Not so bad after all.

Thanks all for comments and advice.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: bigborephil on December 08, 2011, 06:25:21 PM
Here is the belt I carry.  It is very siff but really looks like a normal belt.  It is priced pretty good, too.
 
http://blade-tech.com/Blade-Tech-Looper-Belt-Series-1.5-wide-pr-1250.html (http://blade-tech.com/Blade-Tech-Looper-Belt-Series-1.5-wide-pr-1250.html)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 08, 2011, 07:45:05 PM
That belt looks like good stuff. I have always used "nice" belts, but a "nice" belt isn't worth jack when you are CCing with a full-sized, steel framed combat pistol.  :cheesy:
I'll be getting a belt and a proper holster for Christmas this year too. Oh. And something nice to put into the holster and hang from the belt.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 09, 2011, 10:38:11 AM
 jdr3366
       I would like to say thank you for this entire thread. You have done an amazing job of research, asking questions, listening, not losing your patience when it was very possible someone may have not known you well enough and talked down to you a little. And the most important thing is that you have posted a daily log of how things went, what you found out, what you felt, how things really work in the real world. Oh you can read everything there is on a subject, but until you actually do it for real you just can't possible know and sometimes can end up unpleasantly surprised by something that wasn't mentioned or was incorrect.

       This whole Topic/Thread is going up as a sticky so that anyone that passes through or joins will see what you have done and experienced and maybe find answers to questions they were to embarrassed to ask, not even of their friends or family. You have taken the bull by the horns and are wrestling it to the ground and in the process helping others and even some of "Old Hands" learn something. Good man and thanks again for not only going through all this but posting it for everyone to read.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 09, 2011, 10:14:56 PM
Thanks, GW.

Day 5. Everything feels natural today. Rig was comfortable. Funny, but sitting in the car is how I get the holster comfortable. I put it on before I leave the house. Then, adjust it forward or back until it's comfortable after I sit in the bucket seat. After that, it's good to go the rest of the day.

Went to On Target in Asheville to do some target shooting. They ordered a CZ P07 for another customer. I handled it for a while. Polymer with decocker. It was very nice. Liked the feel and the sights, but I still like my 75B better. The smaller size wasn't small enough for me to consider it an alternative for CC. The clerk told me they received a RAMI on consignment last week. Darn, I missed it by a day or two. It was sold.

I didn't CC when the wife and I went to the Cove tonight for dinner and a concert. My business casual attire was too tight fitting. Or, maybe I was just not comfortable in an environment that is so different from my daily jeans and sweatshirt routine. I was going to carry the wife's LCP just to maintain the discipline of CC. But then she decided to carry it rather than the Lady S&W, which she usually carries. That's right, she has CCed for over a year. I'm a little slower on that point. The RAMI would have been perfect, I think. Don't care for the S&W.

Here's another issue that has come up the past few days. I am sure I set the safety to on before I holster the pistol. But at least 3 times I noticed that the safety was off after I drew the pistol from the holster.  I know it shouldn't happen, and it is possible, I guess, that I forgot to set it. I'll keep careful watch over the weekend. Just wondering how common is that? Is it a sign of a poorly made holster??
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 10, 2011, 12:45:42 AM
First of all, I would like to add my thanks to you for this post. Sometimes I feel like I've been carrying for a while, but it has only been a matter of months. This is a great read. I just went and bought myself a new holster. It's for a 1911, but fits like a glove. I'll put more about that somewhere else...

Now, you ask abut the safety being off... Is your holster custom-made for a CZ? I think you said it was and posted pics, but I can't see pics at work. I have had this happen with the safety a couple of times, on a couple of different pistols. People who know more would probably say otherwise, but my feeling is that it may happen from time to time when you are wearing concealment holsters. In an offset drop holster, nothing is as likely to rub up against the side of the pistol, but in an IWB, it's right against your body, pants, or whatever all day. As long as the trigger is completely and securely covered, even if the safety comes off, you are not going to squeeze one off. But you might consider another holster, and see what happens.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 10, 2011, 11:06:33 AM
The holster was not made for CZ. And it happened again this morning. It's either the holster or perhaps the safety on the pistol is a little weak???

At one time I was so concerned about the safety of carrying a chambered round regardless of the decocker or safety set up. Now, not so much. I'll keep an eye on.

How common is it to require an adjustment to the safety on a CZ 75B??? I assume it's not a complicated fix.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: bigborephil on December 10, 2011, 12:39:19 PM
As long as you keep the trigger covered, you can not set off a round.  The importnant thing is that when you draw, you assume that the safety is off and keep your finger outside the trigger guard.   I have practiced this for so long carring Glocks, that I end up doing it on non-gun objects that are gun shapped (think drills and circular saws).   I do not know enough about CZ safetys to tell you about yours, but I know 1911s are bad about kicking off while in the holster if the sweat guard can rub it or if it is an ambi. 
 
Phil
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 10, 2011, 12:44:03 PM
Yeah, it's not a weak safety. It just happens. Phil had some great advice; just assume safety is off but practice sweeping the safety witg your  thumb as you draw anyway. And it happens way more with my 1911 than my 75B.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 10, 2011, 06:27:45 PM
OK, thanks.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 13, 2011, 10:45:44 PM
I'm back one more time on day 10 of CC.

Yesterday, I bought a new jacket at Sam's Club. Instead of large, I bought XL. Wore it today for lunch with a friend. Surprisingly, it removed all the angst out of CC. Rather than constantly pulling down my sweatshirt, I just CCed it. My friend, a transplanted New Yorker and aghast at the idea of CC, had no clue.

One the way back to the car, my friend wanted to enter the library to ask a question. I came within about 5 feet of the metal detector (at least I thought it was a metal detector), and remembered it might be better to wait outside.

This one simple step (wardrobe adjustment), which I've read over and over again but resisted, made CC easy. CC is a process, and part of the process is rethinking your wardrobe and modifying it a little at a time.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 13, 2011, 11:08:43 PM
Good man! We all appreciate you continuing the chronicle :cool:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on December 14, 2011, 07:03:08 AM
Just FYI, the library probably doesn't have a metal detector. The things that kind of look like it work on the same principle as the ones at Walmart. A small RFID chip is put in the spine of the library books which is then detected if not deactivated at the front desk. It's an anti-theft device.

If it were a metal detector, it would detect all things metal, not just guns and would be going off all the time :)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 15, 2011, 03:12:10 PM
Good to know, Logan.

However, I would have been in violation of the law since I was in a public library (county building), as I understand the law in NC.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 15, 2011, 04:39:25 PM
I feel the need to add a funny note on this since restriction on CC came up.
Here in Kentucky, there are some places you are restricted from carrying- police stations, prisons, etc. the usual stuff. However, private businesses can ban it as well (I believe this is the case in most states). The funny thing is, there is no criminal penalty for carrying in these places. For instance, say the bookstore has signs  posted for "no concealed carry." If they find out that you're carrying, they can ask you to leave. If you don't you can be arrested for trespassing, if you do there's nothing they can do legally. Of course, if you're carrying CONCEALED properly, they should have no idea anyways. I just find it funny that in reality the signs basically imply "if you're caught we'll make you leave" and nothing more.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 16, 2011, 08:21:50 AM
             It's not all that different with Paypal. If they Know, know you are using them as the middlepersons in a weapons transaction, then will not only stop it they will ban you from ever using them again. (Actually all you need then is a VPN, a new email, and a different Credit Card) But there is no way at all those sanctimonious, two faced, hypocritical wankers aren't aware their service is used to buy weapons 24/7 365. And to make matters even more insulting, is that E-Bay owns PayHell and they (E-Bay) allow everything this side of a working firearm to be sold on their site. So as long as you don't tell PayHell What you are buying they are happy to take your money.  :angry: Janus (the 2 faced demi-god of the Greeks or Romans or the Washington Belt Way) should be the Patron Saint of that whole company or at least their corporate Logo
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: chfields on December 16, 2011, 09:43:37 AM
Ghost...don't hold back, tell us what you really think....... :laugh:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 16, 2011, 10:00:52 AM
Well if you really want me too.................................. :tongue: :angel:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Byrd666 on December 17, 2011, 08:40:00 PM
This is basically what I did.

I started by wearing my gun, CZ83 in a Yaqui style owb holster, in my holster at all times possible while in the house and secure in knowing I wasn't going to boo-boo in any way because there was no way I could. Who could see me? After I got comfortable with that after a few days, a short jaunt to the local WallyWorld to pick up some milk and bread. I was of course, overdressed with my leather jacket on a semi mild and fairly warm day.  The next day was warmer so I set out in a thick t-shirt and jeans to the local tradin' post. The only person that noticed anything different that day was the guy I was talking to about buying a new rifle at the tradin' post, and he only gave me a small knowing look that said I was doing okay with it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to show anything, or even attempt to hide anything, I think, as was mentioned before, you just have to "forget" it's there and go on with a normal routine. Just remember the purpose. I hate to say this but, most people don't/won't notice anything unless it's grossly out of place.

Oh yeah, the first time I walked out of the house with my gun on, I felt as though I had a spotlight shining on me and a neon sign flashing on all sides of me
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 17, 2011, 08:56:05 PM
Good idea! I always wear arpund the house. A couple people have asked why. I have some home invasion footage to share. I do need to lose some weight for more comfortable carry though...  :laugh:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 17, 2011, 08:58:59 PM
Quote

I have some home invasion footage to share.
Love it!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 17, 2011, 09:17:07 PM
I was just thinking about something and I wanted to hear people's thoughts.
I have a CZ 75B and I'm planning on carrying it as soon as my custom holster and CCW permit arrive... both are taking longer than I had hoped but should be here by end of month hopefully (of course until Jan 2nd-3rd I'll be in gun-hating Illinois... oh well, bringing the guns anyway!). So, I realized when I was taking the CC course, the 75B has no decocker or anything, which means, if you load the magazine then rack the slide to carry a round chambered, the hammer is cocked. Say you don't want to carry it cocked and locked, you want the hammer down and safety on. Well then, as far as I can tell, you have to carefully start to pull the trigger while lowering the hammer manually while keeping a hold on it. Now of course I have done this several times, but unless I'm at the range or something where I can point downrange it makes me a little nervous if I have to set it up like this say at home or something. Nobody's perfect, and if you slip up and drop the hammer you may have a shot go off... but I see no way around this. If anybody has anything to say on this issue I'd like to hear it. I'd like to carry with a round chambered but not with the hammer cocked, personally.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: chfields on December 17, 2011, 09:30:04 PM
I have been using guns that had none of these no fangled decockers and stuff and never had a problem releasing the hammer. I had a 1911 for many years, just keep your thumb between the firing pin and the hammer and drop slowly and you should have no issue......
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 17, 2011, 09:35:13 PM
You don't want your hammer down on a live round. All it takes is a little snag and boom! It's Tex Grebner all over again. These pistols are designed to be carried C1. I have every faith in the safety of the, well, safety.  :laugh:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 17, 2011, 09:35:48 PM
Yeah, I mean I see it both ways because relying 100% on a decocker isn't necessarily failsafe either... chances of it failing on you seem next to nothing, but things happen... guess it depends who you ask though.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 17, 2011, 09:37:18 PM
Dan,
Can you clarify how you're more likely to have accidental discharge with hammer down than C1? Maybe I am not understanding something functionally...
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 17, 2011, 10:41:44 PM
Yep. As soon as I get home and off my phone haha
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: chfields on December 17, 2011, 10:48:00 PM
From what I understand, unless its an old gun, the likelyhood of it going off with the hammer down is pretty slim.....It is best to carry cocked and locked and use the safety, I have never had an issue, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.....just very unlikely....
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 17, 2011, 11:11:23 PM
So, with half-cock safeties the chances are pretty slim, but the danger would be in something catching the hammer, pulling it back not far enough to catch the half-cock but *just* far enough, and then releasing it. I don't know how likely it is to happen, but I would imagine that it's far more likely than if the hammer is cocked and the safety is on.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 17, 2011, 11:13:21 PM
Yeah, while that scenario seems fairly unlikely, I see your point, and obviously you don't want that risk. I believe my 75B has a half cock safety, unless I'm mistaken. I'll have to look at it. Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 17, 2011, 11:25:02 PM
No problem. This may sound a bit silly but I'm just happy to know enough to be able to help!  :laugh:
Your 75B does have the half cock safety. It will serve you well, no matter how you decide to carry. In my first month of CC I carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. It seemed OK to me. But by and by I had people convince me that Murphy's Law does apply, and since they are designed to carry C1, might as well go for it. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that "I trained" at anything, but after carrying for a while and spending a crap-ton of time shooting, I have absolute faith in everything about my CZ firearms working precisely the way they are supposed to, every time.

Disclaimer: I don't shoot as much as GW, AVM, or probably most others here, but everyone at the local range knows my name, when my B-Day is, and that I only fear my wife a little bit. They also know to show me every CZ that comes in, and I'm starting to get random 15% off prices on stuff I buy...  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: amryan11 on December 17, 2011, 11:29:21 PM
Yeah, I 2nd Murphy's Law.
15% off... I need to get to know people at my local gun stores better  :tongue:
I'm in there enough I just never can afford to buy anything so I'm probably not as interesting... My future father in law is always finding deals on guns and selling them for profit so he always has this spare cash to buy just about any gun he wants... super jealous, but I don't know enough to spot deals like he does... plus I doubt I have the same knack for it anyway!
Unfortunately I don't see that many CZs anywhere, though there are a few at the store I go to.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 18, 2011, 12:41:51 AM
Awesomely enough, Angus Hobdel did some exhibition shooting at my local range a few years back. That and the owner is a huge dangerous African Game hunter. As far as that goes, he needs quality and knows CZs are it. Even at that, several of the employees don't know CZs (1911s are the only guns out there, right?  :angry: ), but the store ALWAYS has 5 in stock. They have a limited edition right now that's way out of my price range, but I can count on there always being something.

By the way, I sold another CZ for them yesterday. An $800 shotgun. They need to hire me on! haha!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: james on December 28, 2011, 01:40:56 PM
Hijack!

@Logan: Hey I was wondering about that Harwell holster.  The issue I have with concealment and the 75B is mainly the grip length.  I'm a little skinny compared to some and my body doesn't have a whole lot of girth to put the pistol next to if you know what I mean.  Just wondering how the holster sits and how well it pulls to the body.  The holster is a reasonable price and I almost ordered it last night...

End Hijack!

Now, back to your originally scheduled broadcast.

I am still fairly new to CCW (2 months now) and I am definitely becoming more comfortable with it.  It is funny how you feel like you're being watched or like someone said "being made"  :laugh: Now it isn't really as much of a problem.  I check my pistol's position in private areas (in the car before going in the store or in the bathroom of the store) and then don't re-adjust or check anymore. 

It will get more natural.  Truth be told mild printing of your pistol will 99% of the time be disregarded by others as a cellphone clip or a multi-tool on your belt if anyone even puts that much though into it.  Most important thing is be you, be confident, and be polite.  It's easy to spot people that are nervous or look like they are hiding something.  So don't think of it like that.  I get more self conscious wearing my cowboy hat in public than I do with CCW-ing now lol
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: b5.5dan on December 28, 2011, 11:17:06 PM
And if you are acting nervous and you ARE made, chances are you will soon be explaining your situation to your local LEOs.  :shocked: :laugh: :laugh:
I'm having a really hard time finding something that adequately conceals my 75 or my SP-01. I have some nice holsters, but they all show a little more than I would like. I guess that's the price of having an oddly-shaped (and somewhat fat) body...
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: james on December 29, 2011, 01:33:46 AM
Yeah, there are bigger guns, but the CZ75 is quite large for concealment.  I know people do it and that it can be done, but I haven't figured it out yet...  At least not to my satisfaction.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 29, 2011, 08:56:23 AM
            Vest, if there is any way at all to justify wearing a vest or a loose cut Sport coat then you should be covered, (pun intended. I have Eddie Bauer, Orvis, a nice plain black leather vest Also 5.11 and a 24.7 and a loose fitting sport coat that I have not gotten to wear in the last few years dam it to hell. A great many folks can justify a vest of some sort, especially if you are an engineer, IT of any kind at all, Dock worker, shipping/warehouse worker, If you work in an office then a nice decent non-biker Loose Leather vest should work just fine. When you buy a new suite from now on, if it's one that gets fitted then tell the Tailor that you carry and would they please left the jacket out a bit or whatever they need to to help conceal your weapon. I flat out, no hesitation say that you will NOT be the first person the Tailor ever heard that request from. Well unless it's their very first day on the job, and the guy teaching them how to be a tailor hasn't gotten around to having a customer order one yet. I have gone into Men's Warehouse, Saks, Brooks Brothers (that guy actually blinked but didn't say anything) And said that very same request. Nobody cared in the least.

             Oh and back in the day (way ancient history) the Chinese Tailor in Hong Kong that I had 3 suits made. He not only didn't blink,  he said he allready knew I carrying and please step into the back so he could measure me with the holster on and asked if I ever wore a shoulder holster. I said yes he said bring it next time I came in for a fitting and he would take new measurements for that. I do so love Hong Kong. Damn near nothing will even get most merchants there to even raise an eyebrow. And they keep your measurements on file forever. You can call or write and order another suit, they ask any change in body weight and if so where, and after they have that answer you get your suit 2 or 3 weeks latter fits like you were there again. and about half the price and twice the quality of most men's suites short of Italy or England.

           OK back to the point. Which is, find something loose that you can justify wearing pretty much anywhere at all, even if you have to get a different one for out shopping and one for work, what ever. Set your the leading edge of your holster just to the front of your pelvic bone, Hopefully not particular close to your pocket and either use a IWB holster or an OWB that has the belt go through the loops crosses IN FRONT of the holster and then buckle it tight enough that your pistol snugs up close as possible to your side with out making your pants bunch anywhere. OH one last thing Baggy Sweat shirts work very well just less justification to have them at work or out to dinner. Coaches jackets are also great, Heck anything bulky is going to go a long way to concealing your weapon. The trick is having a reasonable reason to have what ever you pick on unless you are at home or with friends that carry and it's a BBQ. Actually for the record I have a Black 5.11 Vest that has CZ, Dan Wesson, 2nd Admendant, NRA and a couple other patches that I wear daily and not a single person that would concern me ever gave me a second glance. And if that vest isn't a giant walking sign that I am armed or more than likely armed then I have no idea what could be more obvious than open carry (and IMHO, if OC is legal where you live I would never on my worst day actually open carry unless I was first responder to a crash or disaster.)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 29, 2011, 06:27:59 PM
I'm carrying a CZ 75B everyday around the house and out for my usual errands. This time of the year, a sweatshirt is fine to keep warm and for CC. It doesn't work when I take the wife out for the evening or at church. It's just to bigg for those clothes, which are more form fitting.  I need a RAMI! or maybe a Kahr CW9.

The gun show comes to Asheville January 7th. I'll be looking.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on December 29, 2011, 08:47:24 PM
             NO worries I understand. which is why I suggested finding a loose Sport coat. Most anyone I have met including myself have suites cut ans sewn specifically for our primary CC. But there is nothing at all wrong with having a nice comfortable JC Penny Sport coat with a nice generous cut and no or not much taper at the waist. I have a brown check one and a two tone grey Western cut to cover those situations.
 
             But what I like an know has not one thing to do with what works for you. You didn't spend most of your life looking over your shoulder and at everything in any room you ever entered. or any jungle for that matter. Personally I think you have the better deal. So get what ever pistol YOU feel best about, and what ever cover for it you perfer. You really can't just suddenly go from once dress style to another and not get comments. you need to work everything into place a little at a time so no one really notices.
 
            The other thing you have got to do ,and this is the most important thing of all. And that's going to the range as often and as much as possible wearing exactly what you would on a daily basis, and practice clearing your weapon from concealment and shooting accurately. I promise you it is not as easy as it sounds. Just make sure the weapon is empty before you start practicing drawing it and firing. Ask any Instructor anywhere that's worth his salt and he or she will tell you the exact same thing. In a crisis situation, you go into tunnel vision and fine motor skills take the day off. You need to work on drawing and firing until it's an inbreed muscle memory.
 
         Anyway that's all I wanted to say. Get the pistol you feel most comforttable carrying concealed and then work on your wardrobe one thing at a time. And above all else practice, practice, practice. at home for a while then at the range.
          Civilians and Leo's and Military people all have a very different way of looking at concealed carry. Not anything anyone can do about that. Just keep inmind a couple of the things I have mentioned and you will do ok. Just practice
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Angryvikingman on December 29, 2011, 09:55:06 PM
I've seen several guys who wear shoulder rigs under dress shirts. They just leave a button undone thats level with how they draw. Throw a tie over it and you have CC for church. LOL! Just don't wear a white shirt. I've done that a time or two. If you get an under shirt thats the same color as your over shirt, then people will rarely notice. Even done it a time or two with Dickie's work shirts. That way you can tuck or leave it hanging. Dickies are great for IWB CC and Shoulder rigs, as well as seeming mildly "dressy". As for my daily carry, its my SP-01. Thats a big honking gun to try to conceal, but then again, I'm a big guy. I can wear mine comfortable at the back side of my front jeans pocket, leave my shirt tail out and my love handles conceal it nicely.LOL!
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on December 30, 2011, 07:02:11 PM
Going to the range is the most fun I have all week. :laugh:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Roadking Rider on January 01, 2012, 12:08:53 PM
JMHO I love my CZ75B it's one of my favorite pistols, but as an all day CC piece IMO it's to big and uncomfortable. I live a pretty active lifestyle and carrying a gun that hinders my lifestyle does not get carried for long periods of time. I like my CC gun to be something I do not have to dress around, or that is on the heavy side. My EDC is a PM9 I wear it on my hip in the summer months and in a jacket pocket in the winter. I do carry my CZ at times but it's usually on short trips.
In the begining your going to fell like everyone is looking at you because your gun will feel twice as big as it is and has a neon sign pointing straight at it. If you get the right gun and holster after a while you'll forget at times that you have it on you.  Good luck
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 01, 2012, 04:54:22 PM
I agree, Roadking.

I've only been carrying a short time, and I love my CZ75B, but like you said, "I like my CC gun to be something I do not have to dress around."

The PM9 looks too small to hold comfortably, which is why I listed a CW9 as a CC option, but I'll be shopping next weekend and hopefully will get to try it.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Angryvikingman on January 01, 2012, 06:42:09 PM
I dont use anything more than a loose shirt tail to conceal, and 99.9% of people just dont notice. They're too worried about their cell phone, or other things to even pay attention to my waist line. These days everyone has their head in their butt, so sometimes I don't even bother to conceal.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: james on January 01, 2012, 11:58:16 PM
Now concerning the "hammer down on a loaded chamber".  Unless I'm mistaken all CZ75B's after the pre-ban models have a firing pin safety which means that the firing pin is blocked unless the trigger has been pulled all the way back.  I could be wrong, but I don't think so.  If you take the NRA Basic Pistol Course (required in Colorado to get a CCW) it states that ALL mechanical safeties can fail; just like any other mechanical device.  That being said, hammer down on a live round with a POST pre-ban CZ75B should not be unsafe and even if the hammer is pulled back before the half cock and released it should NOT be able to fire a round.  If I am wrong I would certainly appreciate being corrected.

On another note: I would love to carry my 75 so long as I can conceal it fairly well.  I took Logan's advice and just now ordered a Pro-Tuck Comfort Grip holster and if anyone is interested I was thinking of doing a short video review/demo for you guys to see how it works/conceals.  I'm not trying to promote anything, just for the sake of our knowledge on this board.  I have gained a few pounds of late which I plan to work off, but I am still a pretty tall and thin guy so if it conceals for me, it should for most of you.  If you all are interested I'll put a short video together for you guys/gals.  Let me know - if I don't just force it upon you muahaha.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Roadking Rider on January 03, 2012, 07:26:54 AM
I agree, Roadking.

I've only been carrying a short time, and I love my CZ75B, but like you said, "I like my CC gun to be something I do not have to dress around."

The PM9 looks too small to hold comfortably, which is why I listed a CW9 as a CC option, but I'll be shopping next weekend and hopefully will get to try it.
CW 9 is a nice size pistol for CC. I find that I can get enough fingers on the grip of a PM9 to be able to shoot it accurately and comfortably. I do not think I'd be truthfully able to say that though with a larger caliber round in the same sized pistol. I think the follow up shots if needed would be trouble. That just my opinion though.
I believe that you have to be comfortable with the size of pistol you carry on your hip and what you shoot and handle well. It's sort of a balancing act, of do I go with a bigger frame pistol or do I stay with a smaller framed one. I personally carry everything from a 1911,CZ75B, Glock 26, Kahr PM, down to a KT P3at. Which one I carry depends on where I'm going and how long I plan on being there.  I prefer to carry the 1911 or the CZ but on most days the PM9 seems to end up on my hip or in a jacket or vest pocket. For weddings,funerals and things of that nature the P3at works best. It's not the best choice in fire power but I do not in anyway want anyone to see that I'm carrying either. IMO there really is no right or wrong in any of this., it just depends on what works best for the individuale who is carrying the gun. Where you live and the type of people you come in contact with on a daily basis has a lot to do with it also, as a pistol with a larger round count like the 75B just might be your best option and you'd have to put personal comfort on the shelf for another day and time. It's nice to have options though. :grin:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on January 07, 2012, 08:28:32 AM
James, Roadking, and JDR,


I'm also reasonably thin. I'm also fairly active. I'm a cyclist and keep up with the local college racers, my waist is around 31 inches, 5'11. I also ride my bike to work every day, about 8 miles round trip.


During the winter I have no problems concealing. A coat or jacket over the outside and I'm good to go. During the summer (we had 60 days over 100 this summer) I usually wear an undershirt with a dress shirt on the outside. This likewise is easy enough to conceal as I just tuck in the undershirt, put on the holster, and then tuck the dress shirt (thin cotton) over the outside. The "billow" around the waist is both fashionable and conceals easily. I can do pictures too if needed but sounds like James has it covered. The holster conforms very well to your body, especially after about a month of wearing and is extremely comfortable (with a stiff belt, I got mine from 5.11 tactical, believe me, a stiff belt is worth it).


As far as lifestyle, I tend to be active as well: frisbee, airsoft, biking, etc. I don't wear anything concealed under spandex but can with the others. Whenever I want something just light and unobtrusive I usually use the Kahr PM9 (actually CM9, but same thing with minor variations and cheaper). I use this as a pocket gun and have tried out several holsters for it that I can recommend.


So personally, I don't dress around my CZ but I do have the "undershirt, dress shirt" thing. Anyway, please post your findings James, and I'd be happy to talk more about the Kahr as well.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 07, 2012, 09:28:52 AM
OK Logan. First of all, stop bragging

"my waist is around 31 inches, 5'11. " I don't ever remember my waist at anything less than 36".

Also, thanks for the CM9 testimonial. Asheville gun show is today, and I'll be on the look out.

Really would rather a RAMI, but I think it's going to be just a bit to chunky. Maybe I'll be lucky and find one to hold at the gun show.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on January 07, 2012, 10:02:44 AM
           I had a 31 inch waist once, but she told me to take my hands off or she would break them............................. :cool: :tongue:
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on January 07, 2012, 10:09:18 AM
I do have a RAMI and it is a bit chunky. More than I would have thought. I won't be pocket carrying it, that's for sure!

Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 07, 2012, 04:46:59 PM
I've never actually seen a RAMI up close, but at 1.3 inches I'm not surprised to hear you say it's too chunky to carry in your pocket.

I believe the Kahr CM9 is a little less than an inch wide (0.9 inches), and about an inch shorter too.

How much might adding a Pierce extension (I think that's what it's called) to the magazine reduce the recoil? Any thoughts or experience? A Pierce extension just adds a short length to the front of the magazine, as I understand it. Maybe we are getting to off topic and I should ask someone at the Kahr group.

And, GW, how long ago did you say it was that you "had" a 31 inch waist??
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on January 07, 2012, 04:51:56 PM
I have both a regular magazine and one with an extension (it holds an extra round instead just having a front piece). However, I find that it's easier to carry and just as easy to shoot with the regular magazine. I think that the dislike of a pinky hanging off is more mental than from reduced practicality.


Now I did add Talon Grips to it (basically like skateboard tape) and that makes a huge difference. It goes from something that I was thinking I might have a hard time hanging on to, to something my wife carries regularly and can shoot rapid fire. We went to the range just this last week and did some drills and she was doing very well with it (she's 5'3'', so not large by any means). The grips make far more difference than a pinky extension would, in my opinion.


I'm considering a PM45 for pocket carry myself, should I have to do that sometimes.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Roadking Rider on January 07, 2012, 06:26:17 PM
I have the replacement magazine base plate on my PM9 mags. It adds about a 3/8" to the grip lengh. I can get two full fingers on the grip. I have no problems trying to control the recoil for a follow up shot, because the Kahr fits low in the hand, and I'd be willing to bet my hands are a lot older and beat up more than yours. The DAO trigger on the Kahrs are long for safety reasons but they are butter smooth. Hope you find what tyour looking for but I think you'd be doing yourself an injustice by not at least checking out the Kahr PM/CM line of pistols.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: james on January 09, 2012, 07:49:59 AM
Ok, provided any of the footage I took actually shows what I was trying to show I should have finished a quick demo.  I need to edit the bits together into somewhat of a linear fashion and then I'll probably just post a new thread in this forum (with a link to the new thread as a reply here)

I am not a video blogger and I didn't feel like making a huge production out of things so I apologize for filming in the bathroom (only mirror I have that would work) and for talking quietly (people are trying to sleep).  If you have any other questions that I didn't cover or covered poorly I would be glad to try and answer them.  Uhh... one more thing - if the video is so bad it doesn't help show you the concealability, printing, etc... Please let me know so I can re-do it with some help (I'll make my sister be the camera woman). 
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on January 10, 2012, 02:36:40 PM
          Frankly I think you are throwing the baby out with the bath water gentlemen. First off, the RAMI is for some folks a bit harder to conceal. However, I can point out the 75B Combat, the P-01 (only weapon that NATO uses that they are willing to let civilians buy, which is why P-01's come with the NATO Mil Spec number on the pistol) Ya I know NATO big whoop. well considering I worked with both them and the UN troops. The NATO troops will shoot you if you screw with them. Unlike the UN, NATO has top line units from every friendly nation in the Western Block. Which means they are not going to mess around picking weapons when the people testing them are from different countries and everyone one of them have to agree about a weapon before it's accepted. Anyway I digress. Also there is the P-07 Duty, and there are three versions out this year one of them has a threaded barrel standard.
 
       I have had both the combat and the P-01 in my front pocket more than once in public and not one person even blinked in my direction. And one of those times I was responding as a First Responder at a traffic accident, and not one officer even noticed. And they were literally right next to me kneeling next to the victim's.
 
     And if you seriously want a pistol that small as the Kahr then the CZ 83 .380 is every bit as good and actually better than the Kahr for the simple reason a 9mm coming out of a pistol as small as the Kahr will make getting back on target much harder because the recoil is going to be greater due to the shorter barrel and the shorter grip not allowing your entire hand and all your finger to actually be on the grip. Where as the .380 is balanced well and very easy to keep centered after firing. The only way you will control the Kahr is to load subsonic 9mm and because of the size of the grip if you are using it with wet hands, I won't even give you odds on retaining it in a gun fight after the first or possibly second shot. In a gun fight close in or at distance it is a prove fact that the people involved will have approx a 20 point drop in their IQ and conscience ability to control their natural fight or flight tendencies. Been there done that. And so has every LEO that has worked the street and soldiers in their first combat situation. I have a Rami and the only way I will carry it is with the magazines that have the pinkie extension so that my hand and ALL my fingers will be on the grip helping to control the recoil and get back to POA. Someone with small hands no doubt be able to control the weapon with practice.
 
         And for the record, my question is what's more important? living your lifestyle as is and hope you never get into a real pissing match or modifying your lifestyle a little and have to worry less about being able to respond in kind to any threat? For the record, more assets and or principles have been killed because they refused to modify their "Lifestyle" and reduce their exposure than the ones that listened to the people like me that they hired and or were assigned to help protect them. And when those people died 9 times out of 10 times it was from being severely out numbered or the bad guys really wanted the principle/asset dead and didn't care what it cost to do it. In those cases you could have had them in an Abrams M1A1 main battle tank and it would have not kept them alive.
 
        No offence intended to either one of you, I am not trying to embarass you, not make fun of you are even tell you that you are wrong in what you think is best and why. I simply tried to point out a couple things you may have not thought of and open up a couple more options. You both know how good CZ's are, but if I read everything correctly neither of you owned more than one or 2 CZ's which is great. and I am in no way trying to show you up, I'm simply pointing out how I base my argumanet on. I own 18 different models and 53 pistols total at this point. I have been carrying CZ's for more than 40 years. I have also worn every single model of CZ I have,  a number of times in different settings. Other than the honking big CZ97B and possibly the SP-01's, I had no trouble carring concealed. An I live in Central Florida, I grew up in New Orleans and the Bayous surrounding it. I spent more time in jungles and swamps in foreign countries than I ever want to remember. And 1 desert, sorry 2 (one was for EaE course), I wear shorts and t-shirts and a vest (Eddie Bauer, Orvis, others) pretty much everywhere, unless I am going out to dinner and or a formal gathering. I have never once been stopped and asked if I was carrying. And as I said I pretty much carried all my pistols at one time or another. You may also consider looking into a CZ 82. 9mm x 18 (sort of a cross between a 9mm and a .380). Small enough to hind in a pocket and big enough to control and also stop most any attacker.
 
         
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 10, 2012, 09:38:09 PM
GW, sounds like you've given this a lot of thought.

Here's where I am. I started with a .380 Bursa Thunder. Yes, I know there's no comparison, but I want to stay with 9mm.

Also, I don't think the 75 Compact is that different from the 75 B that I have now.

Here's a comparison for the Compact vs the 75B  vs the RAMI vs the Kahr CW9 (not the smaller CM9)

Barrel length         3.9 vs 4 vs 3 vs 3.6
Overall length       7.3 vs 8.1 vs 6.6 vs 5.9
Height                    5 vs 5.4 vs 4.7 vs 4.5
Width                    1.4 vs 1.4 vs 1.3 vs 0.9
Weight                  33 vs 34 vs 25.5 vs 17

Why do you say that some people find it more difficult to conceal the RAMI???  The dimensions suggest it should be easier to conceal vs the 75B or Compact.

Not withstanding your experience, I've been told the height is the main dimension for CC. I guess this is because the handle prints more than the barrel or the width. Do you agree?

It just seems if I'm going to spend $400+ or so dollars to have almost the same dimensions, I'll stay with the 75B.

Also, it feels good but I'm not in love with the Kahr. I agree that I have concerns about my ability to hold on to it for accuracy and between shoots. But CZ has nothing in 9 mm to compete with those dimensions.

Finally, I would like a pistol that sets up like my 75B: safety, DA/SA, more than 6 rounds. The Kahr doesn't do that.

I should have spent more time with the CZs at the gun show. I think the vendor is not too far away. Maybe I'll drive by an give his collection a closer look.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Logan on January 11, 2012, 06:10:02 AM
I found the RAMI a chunk mainly because the width of the 75B is measured at the decocker, safety, etc., and is much narrower at the barrel. The RAMI is just thick all the way through---thicker across the slide than the 75B, at least it really seems that way, though I've not taken a pair of calipers to it. I'm sure you can pocket just about anything, but of those you list, the Kahr is the only one I would really want to try. It's thinner and shorter in height. Additionally, I found the RAMI difficult to get out of my pocket opening quickly. I never considered the 75B or Compact for pocket carry. That's pretty heavy for a pocket.


I'd like to stay with 9mm too but if there are thinner, smaller CZs I'd be happy to hear more about them.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on January 11, 2012, 11:18:38 AM
        Both points are well made, but here is what or the way my thinking goes. The Rami may well be small light and with the mag pinkie extension easy to handle, But if you are going to CC the you are need to think either IWB or just tucked inside your waste band no holster, (there are pros and cons to that but that's another subjet, and frankly not one I want to tackle since it will never be resolved) or you will have it in some pocket some where. Both the Kahr and the RAMI or for all intents and purposes Square, The certainly have rather sharp and distinctive edges and profiles. Because of that as Logan pointed out it makes them hard to get out if you need to. Too many ways for either to snag. And if you are going for you weapon and you have to struggle or at least make more than a subtle effort to get it out, I'm pretty sure the bad guy is going to notice and most likely take exception, which would most likely not go well for you. But lets skip over that part and consider this. As I said they both have sharp edges, trust me when I say this but they get  really old really fast when you have to deal with them all day, whether they are in an IWB holster or tucked into your belt. OWB is not nearly as uncomfortable but it does make CC a bit more complicated.
 
         You skipped over the     P-01                    the P-07 Duty                        and the CZ 82
                                  Caliber       9                                9                                               9 x 18 Makarov
                                Capacity     16                               16                                              12
                     Weight Loaded      2.24 Lbs                     2.01 Lbs                                   1.16 Lbs
                                    Barrel      3 1/2                           3 3/4                                         3 3/4
                       Overall Length     7                                 7 1/4                                        6 3/4
                                    Height     5 1/2                           5                                              5
                                     Width     1 1/8                           1 1/4                                        1 1/4
                                Estethics     Rnd Slide                    Tampered slide                       all edges rounded
                                                   Sq dust cvr                  Sq dust cvr
                                                   Pict rail                         Pict rail
 
          All in all all 7 pistols are close to each other in all respects except possibly in weight, But the weight you used I'm presuming was loaded. If not then the three I just listed would tilt the choices their way.
 
          Frankly I am not familiar with the Kahr to make any real judgements other than if you use sonic loads and the grip doesn't have some for of little finger support, then it going to be hard to reacquire your target, Subsonic rnds not so much. You can control but give up distance = damage. The RAMI 2025 has a short grip also but as a rule a CZ and some other East European Countries over build their pistols so they can take sonic and some cases super sonic rnds better than most. I'm guessing both the Kahr and I know the RAMI have Little finger support. but there is a substantial difference in weight I think. And that difference will also effect you control. It really comes down to for every action there is a reaction, and the lighter something is it will impart a much higher recoil and muzzle lift than a similar size pistol with slightly more mass/weight.
 
     I will also say that the CZ 82 albeit that it's a WWII/Cold War design and there fore old and a lot cheaper than any of the pistol all of us have mentioned. It is still a very accurate and powerfull weapon and should never be over looked as a CC or even HD pistol. The 9mm x 18 round is plentifully, bigger by half than the .380, smaller by a fourth than a 9mm x 19 (9mm Para) but it is also fast, accurate and capable of doing a great deal of damage. The pistol itself will fit in most pockets (Not back pockets unless you can find a pocket/wallet holster for it. Then it just looks like a fat wallet.) without being obvious to anyone. I have one than one, My daughter loves hers. And trust me she is 5 foot not a lot and about a buck twenty soaking wet, and she can handle and hit what ever she is aiming at with a CZ 75. So the Makarov  just makes her happy as a clam because now she can carry it without having to change her style of dress very much, if at all. The biggest thing in the way of a purse she would carry isn't much bigger than my hand with all my fingers spread, so the 75 was never a CC consideration for her.
 
         The other thing you should keep in mind is that the Makarov  and the CZ 82 version of it, are both classes as Relics and  Curios. Which means the ammo for them is also grand fathered in and that ammo (certainly the Surplus stuff) is FMJ and the M isn't a tin/copper mix.  :cool: If you are into reloading at all then also keep in mind that the 82 is one of those Overbuilt pistols I mentioned earlier and it can take a slightly hotter load than you will find in any store. Certainly hot enough to bring it up to 9mm Para specs. 
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 11, 2012, 07:54:08 PM
The weights I listed are for unloaded pistols. Also, the Kahr is rounded, according to their promotional material.

There is one other reason I resist buying the CZ 83-82 (what's the difference?) that I haven't mention until now. It looks like the Bersa Thunder (or vice versa). And the wife will ask why I sold the $250 Bersa if I was going to turn around and buy a $375 CZ 82?? :shocked:

Actually, that's not such a big problem... more a consideration.

I must admit, I don't view firearms simply as "tools." Watches (Rado). Cars (Porsche). Computers (MacBook). They all have to reach me at tactile and style levels as well as exceptional function.That's the main reason I bought the OD CZ 75B at a premium from a friend.

Regarding the CZ 82, if I can find one that looks like this baby, then I might just take the plunge.

">(http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd512/jdr3366/cz82-1.jpg) (http://s1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd512/jdr3366/?action=view&current=cz82-1.jpg)

(http://www.czforum.com/%3Ca%20href=%22http://s1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd512/jdr3366/?action-view&current=cz82-1.jpg%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3E%3Cimg%20src=%22http://i1223.photobucket.com/albums/dd512/jdr3366/cz82-1.jpg%22%20border=%220%22%20alt=%22CZ%2082-3%22%3E%3C/a%3E)
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on January 11, 2012, 09:51:33 PM
              OK well that changes things a tad, All the ones I listed are weights with full magazines. Really doesn't throw things that far off, but it does put most, if not all, of the pistols you posted at the same weight or heaver than the ones I put up.

              The difference between the 82 and the 83 is that the .82 is a Makerov 9mm x 18 (looks like a cross between a .380 and a 9mm. and the 83 is a .380 also known as a Browning short. The Mak round moves faster and has more weight behind it the a .380. Also has better accuracy at longer ranges than a .380 can handle.

             And I totally get where you are coming from about aesthetics and and value. We have different tastes and or reasons for what we like, but we are basically coming from the same place. Nothing wrong with that attitude at all.

            As for the pistol you posted, well that's easy as heck to deal with. There are at least 3 people that specialize in grips for a CZ82. Any one of them makes a set of grips as good as or actually better looking than that one. CZ 82's can be found on a regular basis on GunBroker.com, Auction Arms.com, GunsAmerica.com ArmsList.com and others. The grips you check out the makers of grips from the list that posted in the Grips topic board. http://www.marschalgrips.com/ (http://www.marschalgrips.com/) is only one of them. take the old grips off and put the new ones on and you have what you asked for. Heck I have 5? Lost count sorry, anyway, 3 of them have been refinished (parkerized) and one Duracoated and with wood grips from one of the other Makers listed, they make that one look like a poor relation. Actually some where on here is/are pictures of most of my pistols that are not safe queens and get used on a regular basis. Check it out and you'll see what I'm talking about. You should see my CZ 52 7.62 x 25 Tokerav just  sick. And it's easy to conceal but it is about the size of a 75 only thinner. you need to buy some American made ammo for it if you ever get one and decide to carry it. because if you shoot anyone using surplus ammo you had best be at a distance because that round will punch through and through. Not a pistol you want to shoot in a crowd. GM posted about a couple Hollow point rounds made here in the US that won't punch through because they are hollow points and I think lighter loads than a FMJ Tok uses.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 11, 2012, 11:29:48 PM
The price for the CZ 82 is tempting. At around $200. I like the history behind it and the 12 round magazine.

I assume it's a direct blowback pistol. Yes?

Curio and relic? What is the significance of this to me?
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on January 12, 2012, 12:25:08 PM
         It really doesn't effect you at all, it only effects who can receive the firearm and what type of FFL they need to do it with. There about 3 classes, 3 subclasses and 11 or so Types (Definitions I think) I am adding a link to the Wikipedia site that covers C & R and FFL rules, regulations and fees. By no means is it a complete and total, FFL are after all and their rules are written by bureaucrats and frankly more often than not Burates that either have no clue about what they are writing the regulation for, or they are someone pushing their own agenda, But once they are written and Congress votes them into law, you had best not play fast and lose with the regulations, Because like the IRS the folks over at the BATFE Offices and NO sense of humor :cool: .
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License)
 
       I am putting this up even though it may not cover ALL the legal garbage but it does pretty much take the Legal mumbo jumbo out and explains things in English most folks can understand. Even if this information is worthless to you, though I do hope not, someone else thinking about getting and FFL or wondering what the classes and definitions are may find it helpfull.
 
And yes it is a blow back configuration. Here is the WikiPedia Link for more or less everything you may want to know about CZ 82
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ-82 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZ-82)
 
This is the Wiki describing the round it fires:
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x18mm_Makarov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9x18mm_Makarov)
 
And just to be through here is the WIKI link for the Makarov
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_PM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makarov_PM)
 
Keep in mind that these are Wikipedia which means some things open or possibly need corrections, but I find they aren't really that far off on most everythin so have fun, I really think you'll get a kick out of the 82 if you get one.
 
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: jdr3366 on January 13, 2012, 09:42:15 PM
Thanks for the info, GW.

l'll keep it all in mind as I consider my next CZ pistol.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: GhostWarrior on January 14, 2012, 09:17:21 AM
          Not to beat a dead horse as it were, and not to bad mouth them at all, but the BERSA company started in 1950's and CZ started out in the 30's, and the Bersa is a CZ 82 Clone. As I said don't get me wrong, I like clones, watched all their movies, ........ummm wrong clones, sorry. Anyway, I had a TZ75 for a year or so that I really liked, so there is nothing inherently wrong with clones. Best wishes.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Virginia John on March 04, 2016, 06:30:28 PM
Yet another sticky?
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: Sprags on October 10, 2017, 02:36:36 AM
The other concern I have is that the 75B is a large weapon. I read about getting a smaller pistol for CC, but I think I should try carrying it for a while and see for myself if it's too large for me to carry.


I thought once I had my CCL bad guys were going to come out of hiding left and right just willingly wait for my citizens arrest.


In reality when I lived in Maine once I attended training I took my certificate to the sheriffs department and got my permit to carry a month later. It was February so I wore my Vanon leather motorcycle jacket with the gun pocket to carry with.


At first it felt cool to carry. After a while I got tired of lugging the extra 26 ounces around so I stopped carrying.
Title: Re: CC tomorrow
Post by: J Mercurio on February 13, 2019, 10:10:58 PM
You will definitely be self conscious and think everyone can see your gun.  You will also catch yourself touching the gun a lot and maybe readjusting it.  All  normal.. Carry confidently.  Make sure you have a plan if you use the restroom.  If you have to drop your drawers, best bet is to unholster and place the gun in your underwear while you do your business.